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Old 10-13-2008, 07:02 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 11:43 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 20:09 +0200, Martin Jürgens wrote:
> > Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in
> > the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could
> > have been better.
>
> Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that
> has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative
> comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything.
>

the beta review here:
http://libregeek.blogspot.com/2008/10/quick-glance-at-fedora-10-beta.html

said:
"As soon as I logged in, the first major change I noticed is the new
Echo-Icon theme. The icon set is great and gave the desktop an elegant
look and feel."

-sv


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Old 10-13-2008, 07:09 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

Martin Sourada wrote:

> Because of the nature of the change it is IMHO possible to make the
> decision last minute (i.e. around the development freeze). What I'd like
> to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it.

fyi, the kde-sig has chosen to *not* use echo (as default) for kde(1) in
F-10,
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30
There's simply too much missing/broken, and not enough man power/time to
find and fix it satisfactorily in time for release.

I do continue to applaud the efforts here.

-- Rex

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Old 10-13-2008, 07:25 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 15:02 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that
> > has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative
> > comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything.
> >
>
> the beta review here:
> http://libregeek.blogspot.com/2008/10/quick-glance-at-fedora-10-beta.html
>
> said:
> "As soon as I logged in, the first major change I noticed is the new
> Echo-Icon theme. The icon set is great and gave the desktop an elegant
> look and feel."


Right, I don't doubt/deny that there are opinions out there that the
artwork is great. I should have said "Those that like it maybe just
choice not to say anything to me." which would contrast with those that
did not like it who have decided to say something to me. It's anecdotal
evidence from me at best.

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identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:20 AM
Luya Tshimbalanga
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

Quoting Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu>:
>
> fyi, the kde-sig has chosen to *not* use echo (as default) for kde(1) in
> F-10,
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30
> There's simply too much missing/broken, and not enough man power/time to
> find and fix it satisfactorily in time for release.
>
> I do continue to applaud the efforts here.
>
> -- Rex

Thank you, Rex. The decision from kde-sig has been expected considering the lack
of manpower to check KDE side for Fedora 10 (Martin and I are primarily Gnome
users) as you stated. It will be nice get one of kde-sig members to keep track
inside Echo icon website[1] for future Fedora release.


References:
-----------

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo
--
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Fedora Project contributor

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Old 10-14-2008, 07:08 AM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

Hi Luya.

----- "Luya Tshimbalanga" <luya@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Quoting Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu>:
> >
> > fyi, the kde-sig has chosen to *not* use echo (as default) for
> kde(1) in
> > F-10,
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30
> > There's simply too much missing/broken, and not enough man
> power/time to
> > find and fix it satisfactorily in time for release.
> >
> > I do continue to applaud the efforts here.
> >
> > -- Rex
>
> Thank you, Rex. The decision from kde-sig has been expected
> considering the lack
> of manpower to check KDE side for Fedora 10 (Martin and I are
> primarily Gnome
> users) as you stated. It will be nice get one of kde-sig members to
> keep track
> inside Echo icon website[1] for future Fedora release.
>

I prepared our own wiki page[1] to track missing Echo icons
for KDE 4. After decision not to use Echo for F 10 I'm not
currently working on it, there are other tasks to be done now.
But it is still our goal to have Echo for F 11. So I can take care
about Echo for KDE.
We (KDE SIG) are doing nearly everything ourselves with limited manpower
so it is more difficult to stay in touch.

References:
-----------
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Branding/Echo


>
> References:
> -----------
>
> [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo
> --
> Luya Tshimbalanga
> Fedora Project contributor
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora-art-list mailing list
> Fedora-art-list@redhat.com
> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list

So again thanks for hard work!

R.

---
Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base OS Core Services Brno
Red Hat, Inc.
+420 532 294 275

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Old 10-15-2008, 06:33 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

Hi Martin.

Martin Sourada wrote:
> most of you probably know, but I'll write it again - Echo Icon Theme is
> the default icon theme in F10 since Beta (for testing purposes and
> exposition to wider audience) and I am one of the feature owners. The
> change is rather small (in that it does not break things, replaces just
> graphics, no code) but pretty much exposed.

I disagree with this statement. Changing the default icon
theme for a distro is a very large and very visible change.
It may not change anything functionally, but from an
aesthetic and usability point of view it may change things
drastically. It also will affect the Fedora brand. I do not
think this is a decision to be made lightly.

> I'd like to make clear that
> we are not going to go against general opinion and I deem it natural for
> the Art (since it's art) and Desktop (since it's going to be default in
> Gnome Desktop) Teams to decide whether we are ready or not.

I think this seems fair. I hope you realize though, that not
everyone on the art team itself supports echo as the default
in Fedora 10. I certainly do not. After trying out the
latest echo package from rawhide, it seems clear to me it is
just not at a state where it is appropriately complete and
of the appropriate quality to be set as the default icon
theme, from an objective point-of-view.

I have put together the following visual critique of Echo
from rawhide. Let me preface it by saying it is obvious that
Echo has come a long way; it is most noticeable in the
applications menus and in some of the desktop-size icons (I
really really love the improvements in the computer icon, it
looks much cleaner now) but it is still very lacking in
quality in areas that affect most applications on the
desktop - file / edit menus, toolbars, and the panel.
Creating an entire icon theme is no small task.

Here's some of that feedback. There are other screenshots at
the bottom of the page I wanted to do the full critique on,
but after spending some hours doing the critique that is
complete there, I felt that what is there sufficiently and
objectively demonstrates that Echo is not ready to be a
default icon set:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Duffy/EchoCritiqueF10

I understand with FESCO you had discussed one metric of
completion, I believe related to fulfillment of the
tango-icon-spec. I do not think that metric is sufficient,
though, to qualify an icon set as being ready to be set as
the default. Other things need to be considered such as
quality (the number of icons that appear chopped off in the
menus in the screenshots I took is not promising), and how
it fits in with other upstream icons we may not necessarily
have control over (thunderbird, firefox come to mind as well
as openoffice.org). I also think that the biggest problem
with echo right now fitting into the Fedora desktop is the
perspectives. An isometric perspective is used for the
panel-size icons which will make it nearly impossible to fit
in with the many upstream application icons that tend to
follow the gnome-icon-theme and tango guidelines by default
these days. I think some tough decisions are going to be
have to made about echo's perspective and how it affects its
fitting in with other icon sets, which is going to be
inevitable.
>
> Because of the nature of the change it is IMHO possible to make the
> decision last minute (i.e. around the development freeze). What I'd like
> to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a
> irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system,
> other way? I'd prefer the vote in the fedora voting system (opened for
> Art and Desktop team members only), but if you think otherwise would be
> better, don't hesitate to suggest.

Why don't we discuss this here first to see if there are any
major objections to pushing it back again? I don't think we
need a vote unless it is clear we don't have a consensus and
are equally divided on the issue.

~m

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Old 10-15-2008, 07:07 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

First of all, thanks for the review, it pretty much outlines the issues
I feel uneasy about as well. First, most of these issues are caused by
SVG icon being scaled down (sometimes for a reason unknown to me and
sometimes because of missing appropriate size variant). So I skip these,
because we need to just finish other size and adjust them a little to
keep them in sync with other icons. I seriously doubt we'll fix those in
time for F10.

Now, for the rest.

The delete icon - yes, it looks different and I proposed we change it to
something other. The discussion was postponed for after F10 release.

The close icon on tabs - yes, it is chopped off and I don't understand
why. It has correct size and the icon itself isn't chopped off, but in
*some* applications it looks this way :-/

The door icon - the doors are slightly opened, perhaps too little, and
behind there is a black space. The two pixel width outline is because
both door and the door-hole has it's own outline. I agree, it might need
improvement.

System->Administration - yep, it probably needs rework to better fit
with the style.

Shut Down - dunno if you remember, but at the time it was being created
there were a lot of submission and for some reason we chose this on. But
even after a half a year (IIRC) of seeing it everyday it looks a bit
weird me.

Network - yep, an old style one. We need to use the new styled monitors
for these...

Palm - agreed

Volume - I accepted it back when we were creating it, but it seems to me
it actually uses different perspective from other icons...

Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice = pain, while firefox being the best...
Basically the toolbar icons are pretty much themable in firefox,
thunderbird needs theme, openoffice needs theme. Not a decent citizens.
Seeing that our mail client of choice is Evolution though, which works
good with Echo, I'd guess Thuderbird hasn't the highest priority (and it
does not even fit with the F9 default icon theme). For openoffice we
would probably need to symlink/copy the echo icons into echo icon theme
for openoffice... I don't know, how they handle it.

I'd very much like to hear Luya's opinion, but I don't feel like
supporting Echo for F10 as default much longer...

Martin
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:07 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

First of all, thanks for the review, it pretty much outlines the issues
I feel uneasy about as well. First, most of these issues are caused by
SVG icon being scaled down (sometimes for a reason unknown to me and
sometimes because of missing appropriate size variant). So I skip these,
because we need to just finish other size and adjust them a little to
keep them in sync with other icons. I seriously doubt we'll fix those in
time for F10.

Now, for the rest.

The delete icon - yes, it looks different and I proposed we change it to
something other. The discussion was postponed for after F10 release.

The close icon on tabs - yes, it is chopped off and I don't understand
why. It has correct size and the icon itself isn't chopped off, but in
*some* applications it looks this way :-/

The door icon - the doors are slightly opened, perhaps too little, and
behind there is a black space. The two pixel width outline is because
both door and the door-hole has it's own outline. I agree, it might need
improvement.

System->Administration - yep, it probably needs rework to better fit
with the style.

Shut Down - dunno if you remember, but at the time it was being created
there were a lot of submission and for some reason we chose this on. But
even after a half a year (IIRC) of seeing it everyday it looks a bit
weird me.

Network - yep, an old style one. We need to use the new styled monitors
for these...

Palm - agreed

Volume - I accepted it back when we were creating it, but it seems to me
it actually uses different perspective from other icons...

Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice = pain, while firefox being the best...
Basically the toolbar icons are pretty much themable in firefox,
thunderbird needs theme, openoffice needs theme. Not a decent citizens.
Seeing that our mail client of choice is Evolution though, which works
good with Echo, I'd guess Thuderbird hasn't the highest priority (and it
does not even fit with the F9 default icon theme). For openoffice we
would probably need to symlink/copy the echo icons into echo icon theme
for openoffice... I don't know, how they handle it.

I'd very much like to hear Luya's opinion, but I don't feel like
supporting Echo for F10 as default much longer...

Martin
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:56 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

2008/10/15 Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>:
> First of all, thanks for the review, it pretty much outlines the issues
> I feel uneasy about as well. First, most of these issues are caused by
> SVG icon being scaled down (sometimes for a reason unknown to me and
> sometimes because of missing appropriate size variant).


Technical question, is this a result of a general limitation in the
available svg rendering stack? I ask because was playing around with
the python bindings for cairo and librsvg in another context and I was
having trouble with scaling and rendering of some simple svg data.
But I fully submit my problems could just be my own poor understanding
of how to make it work.

-jef

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Old 10-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Echo Icon Theme in F10?

On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:56 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> Technical question, is this a result of a general limitation in the
> available svg rendering stack? I ask because was playing around with
> the python bindings for cairo and librsvg in another context and I was
> having trouble with scaling and rendering of some simple svg data.
> But I fully submit my problems could just be my own poor understanding
> of how to make it work.
>
Partly yes. Not sure how exactly it is rendered with librsvg, but there
are some differences to how inkscape renders it (especially with various
filters like blur or mask applied), but some of it are just a problem of
scaling down something that isn't optimised for the size you downscale
it to (upscaling works better).

> -jef
>
Martin
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