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Old 01-22-2011, 01:33 AM
"J.H."
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

>> Currently (and since ~Fedora 12) the default media promoted for
>> installation of Fedora both via our website at fedoraproject.org and at
>> conferences and other events is the Desktop Live Media ISO, delivered
>> via pressed optical media at events, and typically delivered via
>> home-burned optical media or live usb media created via dd,
>> livecd-creator on the command line, or the Live USB Creator GUI (the
>> latter the most popular for non-Linux systems.)
>
> I don't think this is quite a fair representation of the situation
> when it comes to pressed media distributed at events. We don't promote
> either as a "default" method. We have always produced far more
> non-live media for events, usually it outnumbers all the live media by
> 2 to 1 in North America. While some people do install from the live
> media we really promote it as an easy way to try Fedora out, not as a
> preferred way to install it.

While that may all be quite true, for live events, the fact remains when
I go to:

http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora

The big obvious Download button here is for the live media, not for the
installer. I would wager that since Fedora 12 the number of installs /
upgrades done via the live image has gone up significantly because of this.

Now I am a *HUGE* supporter of the Single button serves most uses
approach (heck I'm probably the reason there's a big blue button on the
get-fedora page), but to find the normal install media on the site I
specifically have to jump through two additional clicks:

More download options... -> Formats

The formats section of the page is hidden via javascript, which I'll add
is annoying.

This tells me that the Fedora Project is pushing for people to do more
via the live cd than via the traditional install media, particularly
since it's as buried as it is and the only way to find it is to dig and
know it's there.

>> Live Media affords some clear advantages over traditional installers,
>> primarily in its ability to be used via USB sticks as optical drives are
>> less ubiquitous in laptops and its singularity as one image you can
>> try-before-you-buy to test out drivers, rescue machines, and use as a
>> full installer. It also affords a gee-whiz factor.
>>
>> However, there are some serious concerns about the stability and overall
>> user experience in promoting live media as the primary installation
>> method of Fedora. There is also a larger concern about the future
>> direction and maintenance of the spins project. Creating and maintaining
>> usable live media is not a trivial task and many of our spins
>> maintainers have understandably burnt out. Reconsidering how we deliver
>> installation of Fedora to our end users may offer an opportunity to help
>> this situation.
>
> Again, we do not promote it now as the primary installation method.
>>From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.

If the project is not intending to push the download of the live image
over the traditional install media, than I must ask the obvious
question: why does the website seem to promote otherwise?

I don't entirely agree with removing the installation option from the
live media, I think it actually would be a bad idea.

The issue at hand seems to be one where there are, effectively, two
different installers being supported (one from the live image, and the
more normal anaconda route). Why not simplify this some?

On the live image have the "install" option do nothing more than execute
a kexec (with an appropriate we will be leaving the live realm and
entering the installer, you can't switch back and forth, etc preamble)
to a safe install medium, likely the anaconda network installer to save
space.

This would, I think, keep both sides of this situation happy. It still
uses the proper anaconda installer, while preserving the ability to
opportunistically let people install from the live image should they want.

And if the live images had boot from iscsi support you could run the
whole thing, end to end, from the internet - but I'll admit I can't
figure out who's in charge of the live images to get that support added
in (which I'd happily do the patches for).

- John 'Warthog9' Hawley

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Old 01-22-2011, 01:53 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 02:02 +0000, inode0 wrote:
> > Currently (and since ~Fedora 12) the default media promoted for
> > installation of Fedora both via our website at fedoraproject.org and at
> > conferences and other events is the Desktop Live Media ISO, delivered
> > via pressed optical media at events, and typically delivered via
> > home-burned optical media or live usb media created via dd,
> > livecd-creator on the command line, or the Live USB Creator GUI (the
> > latter the most popular for non-Linux systems.)
>
> I don't think this is quite a fair representation of the situation
> when it comes to pressed media distributed at events. We don't promote
> either as a "default" method. We have always produced far more
> non-live media for events, usually it outnumbers all the live media by
> 2 to 1 in North America. While some people do install from the live
> media we really promote it as an easy way to try Fedora out, not as a
> preferred way to install it.

Fair enough. It is pressed for and distributed at events, though, which
I think is still worth considering since it's still in the mix (and that
may or may not be completely valid to continue doing depending on how we
think this through...)

The website, though, absolutely promotes it as the primary method,
intentionally so.

I'll rewrite this paragraph on the proposal wiki page to not make it
seem as if its the primary thing promoted at events.

> > Live Media affords some clear advantages over traditional installers,
> > primarily in its ability to be used via USB sticks as optical drives are
> > less ubiquitous in laptops and its singularity as one image you can
> > try-before-you-buy to test out drivers, rescue machines, and use as a
> > full installer. It also affords a gee-whiz factor.
> >
> > However, there are some serious concerns about the stability and overall
> > user experience in promoting live media as the primary installation
> > method of Fedora. There is also a larger concern about the future
> > direction and maintenance of the spins project. Creating and maintaining
> > usable live media is not a trivial task and many of our spins
> > maintainers have understandably burnt out. Reconsidering how we deliver
> > installation of Fedora to our end users may offer an opportunity to help
> > this situation.
>
> Again, we do not promote it now as the primary installation method.

Maybe at events, but it is promoted as such on the website. I'm not sure
what % of installs originate from event-distributed media but would it
be the majority? I think online is probably the primary distribution
channel? (Does that seem sensical?)

> >From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.

I'm glad to hear this. I don't know how widely this opinion is shared
but I hope it is.

~m

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Old 01-22-2011, 01:57 AM
inode0
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:33 PM, J.H. <warthog19@eaglescrag.net> wrote:
>>> Currently (and since ~Fedora 12) the default media promoted for
>>> installation of Fedora both via our website at fedoraproject.org and at
>>> conferences and other events is the Desktop Live Media ISO, delivered
>>> via pressed optical media at events, and typically delivered via
>>> home-burned optical media or live usb media created via dd,
>>> livecd-creator on the command line, or the Live USB Creator GUI (the
>>> latter the most popular for non-Linux systems.)
>>
>> I don't think this is quite a fair representation of the situation
>> when it comes to pressed media distributed at events. We don't promote
>> either as a "default" method. We have always produced far more
>> non-live media for events, usually it outnumbers all the live media by
>> 2 to 1 in North America. While some people do install from the live
>> media we really promote it as an easy way to try Fedora out, not as a
>> preferred way to install it.
>
> While that may all be quite true, for live events, the fact remains when
> I go to:
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
>
> The big obvious Download button here is for the live media, not for the
> installer. *I would wager that since Fedora 12 the number of installs /
> upgrades done via the live image has gone up significantly because of this.
>
> Now I am a *HUGE* supporter of the Single button serves most uses
> approach (heck I'm probably the reason there's a big blue button on the
> get-fedora page), but to find the normal install media on the site I
> specifically have to jump through two additional clicks:
>
> More download options... -> Formats
>
> The formats section of the page is hidden via javascript, which I'll add
> is annoying.
>
> This tells me that the Fedora Project is pushing for people to do more
> via the live cd than via the traditional install media, particularly
> since it's as buried as it is and the only way to find it is to dig and
> know it's there.

I don't disagree with that, I just didn't want both distribution
channels lumped together because at live events I think the impression
we give is live media is for trying stuff out non-destructively and
installation media is for installing Fedora with both available to
visitors.

>>> Live Media affords some clear advantages over traditional installers,
>>> primarily in its ability to be used via USB sticks as optical drives are
>>> less ubiquitous in laptops and its singularity as one image you can
>>> try-before-you-buy to test out drivers, rescue machines, and use as a
>>> full installer. It also affords a gee-whiz factor.
>>>
>>> However, there are some serious concerns about the stability and overall
>>> user experience in promoting live media as the primary installation
>>> method of Fedora. There is also a larger concern about the future
>>> direction and maintenance of the spins project. Creating and maintaining
>>> usable live media is not a trivial task and many of our spins
>>> maintainers have understandably burnt out. Reconsidering how we deliver
>>> installation of Fedora to our end users may offer an opportunity to help
>>> this situation.
>>
>> Again, we do not promote it now as the primary installation method.
>>>From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
>> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
>> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
>> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.
>
> If the project is not intending to push the download of the live image
> over the traditional install media, than I must ask the obvious
> question: why does the website seem to promote otherwise?

I can't speak to the reasons the website is how it is. Probably just a
case of the best intentions not leading to the best results. There is
no reason to not revisit those decisions now and make appropriate
changes. I'm all for that.

> I don't entirely agree with removing the installation option from the
> live media, I think it actually would be a bad idea.

Yeah, I am ambivalent about the install option on live media
personally. I never use, I know others who always use it. It just
isn't really the selling point of the live media to me.

> The issue at hand seems to be one where there are, effectively, two
> different installers being supported (one from the live image, and the
> more normal anaconda route). *Why not simplify this some?

No objection from me.

> On the live image have the "install" option do nothing more than execute
> a kexec (with an appropriate we will be leaving the live realm and
> entering the installer, you can't switch back and forth, etc preamble)
> to a safe install medium, likely the anaconda network installer to save
> space.
>
> This would, I think, keep both sides of this situation happy. *It still
> uses the proper anaconda installer, while preserving the ability to
> opportunistically let people install from the live image should they want.
>
> And if the live images had boot from iscsi support you could run the
> whole thing, end to end, from the internet - but I'll admit I can't
> figure out who's in charge of the live images to get that support added
> in (which I'd happily do the patches for).

No objection to any of those suggestions either.

John

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Old 01-22-2011, 02:07 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 02:33 +0000, J.H. wrote:
> I don't entirely agree with removing the installation option from the
> live media, I think it actually would be a bad idea.
>
> The issue at hand seems to be one where there are, effectively, two
> different installers being supported (one from the live image, and the
> more normal anaconda route). Why not simplify this some?
>
> On the live image have the "install" option do nothing more than execute
> a kexec (with an appropriate we will be leaving the live realm and
> entering the installer, you can't switch back and forth, etc preamble)
> to a safe install medium, likely the anaconda network installer to save
> space.

This is a really interesting idea. Is there a way to enable an install
without internet connection though? Is it a problem if not? I'm not sure
- you need an internet connection to download the ISO in the first place
so maybe not. (It might be a problem to hand something like this out at
shows or thru the free media project though? Maybe?)

> This would, I think, keep both sides of this situation happy. It still
> uses the proper anaconda installer, while preserving the ability to
> opportunistically let people install from the live image should they want.

I like it, what do the installer team folks think?

> And if the live images had boot from iscsi support you could run the
> whole thing, end to end, from the internet - but I'll admit I can't
> figure out who's in charge of the live images to get that support added
> in (which I'd happily do the patches for).

I'm not sure either, sadly

~m

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Old 01-22-2011, 02:09 AM
inode0
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

2011/1/21 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 02:02 +0000, inode0 wrote:
>> > Currently (and since ~Fedora 12) the default media promoted for
>> > installation of Fedora both via our website at fedoraproject.org and at
>> > conferences and other events is the Desktop Live Media ISO, delivered
>> > via pressed optical media at events, and typically delivered via
>> > home-burned optical media or live usb media created via dd,
>> > livecd-creator on the command line, or the Live USB Creator GUI (the
>> > latter the most popular for non-Linux systems.)
>>
>> I don't think this is quite a fair representation of the situation
>> when it comes to pressed media distributed at events. We don't promote
>> either as a "default" method. We have always produced far more
>> non-live media for events, usually it outnumbers all the live media by
>> 2 to 1 in North America. While some people do install from the live
>> media we really promote it as an easy way to try Fedora out, not as a
>> preferred way to install it.
>
> Fair enough. It is pressed for and distributed at events, though, which
> I think is still worth considering since it's still in the mix (and that
> may or may not be completely valid to continue doing depending on how we
> think this through...)

Well, this is what was worrying me about this discussion. I think the
live media (or some sort of live media) really has tremendous value at
events big and small. If this leads to an effort to make better live
media I'm all for it. Getting rid of live media is going to be a tough
sell to those of us who see its value.

> The website, though, absolutely promotes it as the primary method,
> intentionally so.

Yup, I see that.

> I'll rewrite this paragraph on the proposal wiki page to not make it
> seem as if its the primary thing promoted at events.

Thanks.

>> > Live Media affords some clear advantages over traditional installers,
>> > primarily in its ability to be used via USB sticks as optical drives are
>> > less ubiquitous in laptops and its singularity as one image you can
>> > try-before-you-buy to test out drivers, rescue machines, and use as a
>> > full installer. It also affords a gee-whiz factor.
>> >
>> > However, there are some serious concerns about the stability and overall
>> > user experience in promoting live media as the primary installation
>> > method of Fedora. There is also a larger concern about the future
>> > direction and maintenance of the spins project. Creating and maintaining
>> > usable live media is not a trivial task and many of our spins
>> > maintainers have understandably burnt out. Reconsidering how we deliver
>> > installation of Fedora to our end users may offer an opportunity to help
>> > this situation.
>>
>> Again, we do not promote it now as the primary installation method.
>
> Maybe at events, but it is promoted as such on the website. I'm not sure
> what % of installs originate from event-distributed media but would it
> be the majority? I think online is probably the primary distribution
> channel? (Does that seem sensical?)

I'm sure the number of installs generated by the website dwarfs the
number from media distributed at events. We probably only give out
around 6k pieces of media per release in North America so I hope other
installation sources contribute more to our user base.

>> >From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
>> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
>> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
>> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.
>
> I'm glad to hear this. I don't know how widely this opinion is shared
> but I hope it is.

I know other people who love installing from live media. But as I look
at the sources of value that live media brings to the table that is at
the bottom of the list.

I'll add that the biggest shortcoming of the current live media in my
opinion is that it doesn't include enough software to really showcase
Fedora in as powerful a way as it could. I would like to see us move
to live media that includes much more, perhaps as big as 2GB which
could easily accommodate a full installer being incorporated into it.

John

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Old 01-22-2011, 02:23 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 03:09 +0000, inode0 wrote:
> Well, this is what was worrying me about this discussion. I think the
> live media (or some sort of live media) really has tremendous value at
> events big and small. If this leads to an effort to make better live
> media I'm all for it. Getting rid of live media is going to be a tough
> sell to those of us who see its value.

Is the value in demoing *in the booth* or giving to people to take home?

> > Maybe at events, but it is promoted as such on the website. I'm not sure
> > what % of installs originate from event-distributed media but would it
> > be the majority? I think online is probably the primary distribution
> > channel? (Does that seem sensical?)
>
> I'm sure the number of installs generated by the website dwarfs the
> number from media distributed at events. We probably only give out
> around 6k pieces of media per release in North America so I hope other
> installation sources contribute more to our user base.
>
Ah. So it may not be worth mentioning events much at all in the
proposal. Sorry for stringing it in, especially in such a misinformed
light, I'm very sorry - I don't know much about which media is produced
in what numbers, but thought we had handed out a lot more live media
than DVD at shows I've been boothing at in recent memory.

> >> >From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
> >> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
> >> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
> >> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear this. I don't know how widely this opinion is shared
> > but I hope it is.
>
> I know other people who love installing from live media. But as I look
> at the sources of value that live media brings to the table that is at
> the bottom of the list.
>
> I'll add that the biggest shortcoming of the current live media in my
> opinion is that it doesn't include enough software to really showcase
> Fedora in as powerful a way as it could. I would like to see us move
> to live media that includes much more, perhaps as big as 2GB which
> could easily accommodate a full installer being incorporated into it.

Yeh, I think a word processor would help. And gimp. And inkscape. But I
am biased

~m

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Old 01-22-2011, 07:36 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

2011/1/21 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 03:09 +0000, inode0 wrote:
>> Well, this is what was worrying me about this discussion. I think the
>> live media (or some sort of live media) really has tremendous value at
>> events big and small. If this leads to an effort to make better live
>> media I'm all for it. Getting rid of live media is going to be a tough
>> sell to those of us who see its value.
>
> Is the value in demoing *in the booth* or giving to people to take home?

Personally I would prefer a mix of both. You have a live media which
can be demoed and if you want a particular blend of Fedora there are
desktop icons which a person clicks and then runs the anaconda
installer to get to the hardware. However wishes are fishes.

I normally use "live" media for enhanced rescue environments. While
probably not the "best" use, I have seen colocation techs use it to
boot up a system and check out what is running compared to how
hardware was running before. Other places I have seen it used are in
throw away mode places. I have untrusted hardware, network, etc. I
just want to run from a cdrom and save to a flash/usb drive (or some
combo of all that). tada. In those cases, I am not wanting to install
(heck I really really DON'T want to install in some cases.)


--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance."
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard
battle." -- Ian MacLaren

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Old 01-22-2011, 08:19 PM
inode0
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

2011/1/21 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 03:09 +0000, inode0 wrote:
>> Well, this is what was worrying me about this discussion. I think the
>> live media (or some sort of live media) really has tremendous value at
>> events big and small. If this leads to an effort to make better live
>> media I'm all for it. Getting rid of live media is going to be a tough
>> sell to those of us who see its value.
>
> Is the value in demoing *in the booth* or giving to people to take home?

There is high value for demo use but not just at booths. The
convenience of having them available on your laptop to boot in a VM at
will or on a USB stick make it possible to quickly show off Fedora to
an interested person pretty much any time the occasion arises.

At events I think there is more value in getting people to test Fedora
while they are at the event than sending a DVD home with them. Since
live media can be experimented with non-destructively I often see
someone come back to the booth the next day with questions after
playing around with Fedora in their room overnight. That really
doesn't happen with the full DVD during events. I have no way of
knowing how many people who take DVDs home actually install Fedora
from them but I'm pretty pessimistic about the number, I suspect it is
pretty low and most event goers at least in NA and EMEA are probably
quite capable of downloading it anyway.

So as far as event use goes I am a big fan of live media and think it
is in general a better thing for us to use to hook folks in that
environment.

Live media is also valuable to some people to test whether a
particular piece of hardware will be happy with Fedora. That use case
is small, but it can sure put your mind at ease booting it up and
seeing that the wireless works before you buy it.

Live media is valuable in various situations where you don't want to
install but you want to boot into a safe environment. I use Fedora
live media in several ways that fall into this category, but there are
alternatives and using Fedora doesn't bring anything specific to these
cases.

>> > Maybe at events, but it is promoted as such on the website. I'm not sure
>> > what % of installs originate from event-distributed media but would it
>> > be the majority? I think online is probably the primary distribution
>> > channel? (Does that seem sensical?)
>>
>> I'm sure the number of installs generated by the website dwarfs the
>> number from media distributed at events. We probably only give out
>> around 6k pieces of media per release in North America so I hope other
>> installation sources contribute more to our user base.
>>
> Ah. So it may not be worth mentioning events much at all in the
> proposal. Sorry for stringing it in, especially in such a misinformed
> light, I'm very sorry - I don't know much about which media is produced
> in what numbers, but thought we had handed out a lot more live media
> than DVD at shows I've been boothing at in recent memory.

I think it is fair to estimate that in the area of 25k to 30k pieces
of pressed media annually are distributed by representatives of the
project. Event owners request the media they want for their events,
some will choose live media based on availability or their view of how
well it matches those who they expect to attend. So what you see at
any particular show is not consistent across shows.

Freemedia is another data point but I think one you should probably
disregard too. Requests for freemedia are overwhelmingly lopsided in
favor of full installation DVDs but the folks requesting media that
way typically do not have adequate bandwidth to download it so they
want as much software on the media as possible. The volume in the
freemedia program is also low, maybe around 300-500 pieces of media a
month.

>> >> >From the perspective of someone who has handed out such media at
>> >> events, if the install to hard drive option on the live media is
>> >> causing issues my suggestion is to remove it. The live media has great
>> >> value without it - it seems to be almost an afterthought anyway.
>> >
>> > I'm glad to hear this. I don't know how widely this opinion is shared
>> > but I hope it is.
>>
>> I know other people who love installing from live media. But as I look
>> at the sources of value that live media brings to the table that is at
>> the bottom of the list.
>>
>> I'll add that the biggest shortcoming of the current live media in my
>> opinion is that it doesn't include enough software to really showcase
>> Fedora in as powerful a way as it could. I would like to see us move
>> to live media that includes much more, perhaps as big as 2GB which
>> could easily accommodate a full installer being incorporated into it.
>
> Yeh, I think a word processor would help. And gimp. And inkscape. But I
> am biased

I agree. I'm not biased for either word processors or inkscape as I
really don't use either but I do think they should be on the live
media. What we want is to have on the media what will impress the
person booting it up and looking around and we don't know in advance
what their interests will be (but we know they will cover just about
everything if we sum them up).

John

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Old 01-23-2011, 12:31 AM
John Reiser
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

On 01/21/2011 11:25 AM, MáirÃ*n Duffy wrote:

> When I installed Fedora 14 via DVD, it took:

> ‣ 45 minutes from starting the install to booting into a running
> desktop

That install time is 2X slower than I usually see on my boxes.

Today I performed three installs of a DVD of Fedora 15 rawhide
in (mm:ss) to these root filesystems:
total type Packages only
21:31 ext2 15:45
22:14 ext3 16:28
21:54 ext4 16:12
The box is a 2.0GHz uniprocessor x86_64, 3.3GB DDR RAM (not DDR2 or DDR3),
4X DVD+RW media in desktop DVD drive ("22X" but only 4X because of media),
7200RPM SATA 3.0 Gbit/s harddrive (138MB/s observed max transfer rate.)

I composed the DVD myself using pungi. I excluded all the @Languages by
commenting them out in the fedora-rawhide.ks, so the result is 2.6GB
instead of 3.5GB. I Fresh Installed the default Graphical Desktop to an
existing 16GB partition, reformatted to ext2/3/4. There were 1207 packages
which "df" said occupied 3.4GB on the installed root filesystem.

Switching to VT2 just before reboot, "ps ax | grep anaconda" showed
just over 9 minutes CPU time, for an average 41% CPU utilization.
By creating a three-stage pipeline (fetch .rpm and uncompress, %install,
%post) and running two pipes in parallel, then the time for package
install can be reduced by a factor of 2X or more. Note that there were
at least 2*1207 DVD seeks which accounted for about 300 seconds
of dead time. One pipeline would recover that 5 minutes easily.
See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=71184
(8 years old.)

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Old 01-23-2011, 11:19 PM
John Reiser
 
Default Draft proposal for using full anaconda as the default Fedora download

> I composed the DVD myself using pungi. I excluded all the @Languages by
> commenting them out in the fedora-rawhide.ks, so the result is 2.6GB
> instead of 3.5GB. I Fresh Installed the default Graphical Desktop to an
> existing 16GB partition, reformatted to ext2/3/4. There were 1207 packages
> which "df" said occupied 3.4GB on the installed root filesystem.

Today I built a DVD with no excluded languages: 3.8GB total DVD size,
3150 packages. Graphical Desktop installed the same 1207 packages
as before: total 3.4GB on ext4, taking the same elapsed time of 22 minutes.

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