On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:10 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > Provoking question:
> >
> > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp.
> > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results?
> >
>
> Most likely.
Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus
reports.
Ralf
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05-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Jesse Keating
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 08:17 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>
> -jef"and by steak dinner... i mean one piece of beef jerky split among
> the team"spaleta
Could that be moose jerky?
--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
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05-14-2008, 04:59 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> Could that be moose jerky?
I could arrange that yes. And luckily since the greendex quiz doesn't
specifically ask about how often you eat moose, you'd get a boost in
your effort to beat Seth's ridiculous greendex score by eating moose
regularly.
-jef
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05-14-2008, 05:21 PM
"Jon Stanley"
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> I'll chip in for a nice steak dinner for the triage team. I certainly
> appreciate it. Triage was the first thing I failed to do well back in
> the FC1/2 timeframe. I've since gone on to fail at several other
> things since then, but I still remember and I salute them.
And if other people had not tried, we would have no experience to draw
from in order to know what works and what doesn't - your past efforts
are appreciated
> -jef"and by steak dinner... i mean one piece of beef jerky split among
> the team"spaleta
Mmmm, jerky
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05-14-2008, 06:50 PM
Christopher Aillon
bug triage considered useful?
On 05/14/2008 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:10 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
Ralf Corsepius wrote:
Provoking question:
Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp.
today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results?
Most likely.
Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus
reports.
One way to avoid that in the future is to triage bugs yourself before
they get stale.
Something else they should do though is to include a
$RandomWordForFiltering so once you get one, just apply a filter and
kill all of them with one stone.
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05-14-2008, 07:24 PM
"Jon Stanley"
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus
> reports.
Fedora 7 is going EOL in 30 days. This isn't bogus, it's a fact.
Moreover, the process that we're following had been submitted for
review, comment, and approval within the community for quite some time
prior to it's execution. In fact, at one point I was BEGGING for
feedback on it [1]. If you can suggest something better for Fedora
10, some concrete area in which we did the wrong thing (preferably
along with suggestions of what the right thing would have been), I'm
all ears.
--
Jon Stanley
Fedora Bug Wrangler
jstanley@fedoraproject.org
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05-14-2008, 09:06 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 07:36 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> > Provoking question:
> >
> > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp.
> > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results?
>
> So far I've found it useful. The messages I'm getting have reminded me
> to re-look at a number of items I've filled to see if they are still
> relevant, which I've totally forgotten about filing against now dead
> Fedora releases.
Same here. It's been extremely useful for making sure I'm not unfairly
taking up someone else's attention on their bug list.
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:05 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 2008, Matt Domsch wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 05:07:52PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > > Provoking question:
> > >
> > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp.
> > > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results?
> >
> >
> > Having had to personally deal with tens of thousands of bugs / bug
> > reports / issues / resolutions in the 9+ years I've been actively
> > developing Linux, I'm glad for _anyone_ who steps up and tries to
> > actively manage this list. Issues get resolved but not closed.
> > Issues get reported but lack follow-up (either developer or reporter)
> > on occasion. Eventually these need to get pruned, like any good
> > garden, leaving only the actual problems which need focus. The Triage
> > effort is designed to do exactly this.
I am not denying this kind of job needs to be done, nor I am I denying
this to be an unthankful job, but ... I am questioning their approach.
> > Does it generate some additional mail? Yes. Are they taking steps to
> > minimize the extra mail? Yes. But does that mail generation negate
> > the good they're accomplishing? IMHO, No.
IMO, it "negates the good".
They mail-bomb reporters, they mail-bomb maintainers, they flood
mailing-lists, they render bugzilla entries unreadable, they produce
plenty of superfluous/bogus reports ...
All in all, I find the collateral damage to be too high, because they do
not fix the causes for PRs to pile up but are "playing with symptoms".
> Agreed, its a completely thankless job and an easy target but after these
> begining steps are over and the team is into a cycle I think it will do a
> great deal of good.
Well, I do not agree. As far as I am concerned as reporter and
maintainer, all they have done is to close a hardly measurable number of
PRs which had really become outdated because the "package maintainer had
ignored it" and caused nothing but spam on the overwhelming majority of
open PRs.
Ralf
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05-15-2008, 04:39 AM
Ralf Corsepius
bug triage considered useful?
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:24 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
>
> > Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus
> > reports.
>
> Fedora 7 is going EOL in 30 days. This isn't bogus, it's a fact.
In bugzilla, most reporters use the "version" in the sense of "first
version of Fedora" having been affected by a bug.
Now, you are spamming them the reporters with mails, effectively pushing
them around demanding action on something they are not responsible for.
=> you are driving away reporters.
At the same time, you are forcing maintainers to waste time on actions
on something they likely are aware about.
At least to me, as a maintainer, the effect most of the triage mails I
received in recent days had, was me to reopen/change the version tags in
PRs they complained about and to extend my MUA's /dev/null-filter.
> Moreover, the process that we're following had been submitted for
> review, comment, and approval within the community for quite some time
> prior to it's execution. In fact, at one point I was BEGGING for
> feedback on it [1].
I have always been opposed to this kind of triage ... IIRC, I had spoken
up, then, but I am not sufficiently interested in this kind of job and
am too busy with other tasks, to be wanting to get further involved into
it. - Now, I am only complaining, because your deeds are showing to have
too much of an impact on me.
> If you can suggest something better for Fedora
> 10, some concrete area in which we did the wrong thing (preferably
> along with suggestions of what the right thing would have been), I'm
> all ears.
>
> [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg01199.html
>
IMHO, the essential effect your triage-robot has, is cosmetics to the
bug number statistics, without actually fixing much.
I feel, a human (or a team), "systematically and *sustainably*
inspecting old bugs" and - more important - taking _immediate_ action on
new reports, would be a better approach. It would help getting bugs
fixed, instead of seeing them "closed" after they had been lingering
around much too long.
That said, IMHO, the essential effect your triage-robot has, is
cosmetics to the bug number statistics, without actually fixing much.
Ralf
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05-15-2008, 05:49 PM
Alexandre Oliva
bug triage considered useful?
On May 14, 2008, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> I am not denying this kind of job needs to be done, nor I am I denying
> this to be an unthankful job, but ... I am questioning their approach.
I think it's too early to draw any conclusions.
When the process first starts, there's a huge wave of low-hanging
fruit that may have been neglected for a very long time.
Once it gets into regime, *then* we can tell whether it generates too
much traffic or is otherwise harmful.
--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ˇSé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
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