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PETER ZOELLER 10-11-2012 07:09 PM

Code names
 
In my humble opinion, code names are meaningless and make no sense other than assign a pretty name to a distro but tells nothing with respect to the distro.* So how meaningful are code names?* Here is the exercise to see?* Rhyme off in order of development ie. development sequence of each Fedora distribution by code name only.* How many can you even remember?* If it is so important to have a code name then at least choose a code name that shows some kind of progression like a deck of cards.

Peter :-)

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Today's Topics:

* 1. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Máir*n Duffy)
* 2. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Matthew Miller)
* 3. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier)
* 4. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Seth Vidal)
* 5. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (inode0)
* 6. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Peter Robinson)
* 7. Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
* * * Elements (Máir*n
Duffy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:57:31 -0400
From: Máir*n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID: <1349974651.15432.19.camel@pandamotor>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > The folks who came up with the naming scheme themselves have said enough
> > is enough.
>
> I think there is a pretty big disconnect between what people think
is
> the reaction and what people at events representing Fedora see as the
> reaction. I know I have not seen anything at all negative personally
> at events with non-Fedora people. I only see negativity about the name
> internally.

Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
because of the language barrier. I remember talking to Tatica about this
at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.

So maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
what's going on or were turned off and went to another distro.

~m



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:04:34 -0400
From: Matthew Miller <mattdm@fedoraproject.org>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID: <20121011170433.GA16955@disco.bu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:57:31PM -0400, Máir*n Duffy wrote:
> Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
> users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
> it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
> because of the language barrier. I remember
talking to Tatica about this
> at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.
>
> So maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
> what's going on or were turned off and went to another distro.

Precise Pangolin?


--
Matthew Miller* ☁☁☁* Fedora Cloud Architect* ☁☁☁* <mattdm@fedoraproject.org>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:05:15 -0500
From: "Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier" <jzb@zonker.net>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re:
Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID:
*** <CAFz8d2MvrVh4ozSp2MzzYr2c_OT=1fh5k56zsqHvju3HjqgY yQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy@gmail.com> wrote:
> I completely agree with Máir*n.* Beefy Miracle and Spherical Cow just sounds
> silly to me.* I would hate to see the Fedora status quo become silly, and
> ridiculed by the Linux community.

I think that arguing incessantly about the naming process opens Fedora
up to more ridicule than the names it has produced.

While I've heard folks groan about the Fedora names, I don't think
I've ever heard
anyone "ridicule" Fedora for its names.

I've seen this discussion about names pop up multiple times, but it
only seems to enjoy support from a small number of folks who don't
like some of the names picked. Maybe it's time to drop it and accept
that the current system, while not perfect, doesn't need to be
modified or killed.
--
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about/
http://twitter.com/jzb


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1210111304570.13092@opus>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed




On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

> I think that arguing incessantly about the naming process opens Fedora
> up to more ridicule than the names it has produced.
>
> While I've heard folks groan about the Fedora names, I don't think
> I've ever heard anyone "ridicule" Fedora for its names.
>
> I've seen this discussion about names pop up multiple times, but it
> only seems to enjoy support from a small number of folks who don't
> like some of the names picked. Maybe it's time to drop it and accept
> that the current system, while not
perfect, doesn't need to be
> modified or killed.
> --
> Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier

Joe,
* I have voiced support for killing all names entirely and only going with
numbers. The lwn article cites me in that. I am not upset about the
current names I honestly do not remember them for more than the day they
are announced, typically. I only care about the waste of time and the
noise generated by the naming discussion.

So - there you have it someone who supports doing away with the naming who
is not upset about the named picked.

-sv



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:11:34 -0500
From: inode0 <inode0@gmail.com>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID:
*** <CAAHfupnJUVQ-+xAML8kSYuMp5Ky_Ys6KCirG_yLhivgP6oX7ZQ@mail.gmail. com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Máir*n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> > The folks who came up with the naming scheme themselves have said enough
>> > is enough.
>>
>> I think there is a pretty big disconnect between what people think is
>> the
reaction and what people at events representing Fedora see as the
>> reaction. I know I have not seen anything at all negative personally
>> at events with non-Fedora people. I only see negativity about the name
>> internally.
>
> Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
> users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
> it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
> because of the language barrier. I remember talking to Tatica about this
> at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.

I am aware of tatica's concerns. I really don't see why this is a big
hurdle. Release names almost never come up in conversations with
people at events anyway and it is easy enough to smile and say "oh,
Beefy Miracle was just Fedora having a little fun" and move on to
important things.

> So
maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
> what's going on or were turned off and went to another distro.

Actually for the first time in my experience I was approached by
people who gently ribbed me about the name or who asked a first
question about where it came from. I think it opened doors rather than
closed them but one can never know who didn't come and for what
reason.

John


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 18:14:35 +0100
From: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson@gmail.com>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table
of
*** Elements
Message-ID:
*** <CALeDE9OtZsRKRMLt3C_cD-QEkWCOO9oTB1Ema4ayoN0TcKiMvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Máir*n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> > The folks who came up with the naming scheme themselves have said enough
>> > is enough.
>>
>> I think there is a pretty big disconnect between what people think is
>> the reaction and what people at events representing Fedora see as the
>> reaction. I know I have not seen anything at all negative
personally
>> at events with non-Fedora people. I only see negativity about the name
>> internally.
>
> Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
> users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
> it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
> because of the language barrier. I remember talking to Tatica about this
> at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.

I don't believe moving to a set format such as the periodic table is
going to improve that at all and if they're confused about the release
names are they any less confused about say the Ubuntu naming? I'm not
sure some of the word used in their releases are even translatable
into a lot of languages.

> So maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
> what's going on or were turned off and went
to another distro.

I also are very unsure about people going to another distribution due
to the name. I don't believe there's any evidence of this what so
ever. Most people I know that don't like the release naming ignore it
and just use the release number.

Just before the release of Fedora 17 there was a board ticket opened
by someone in the Fedora Hindu community about the use of beef in the
naming due to the cow being sacred. They never bothered to bring it up
long before that even though it had been public for months and what's
more the number of people that vote for a release name isn't that high
and the difference in voting between first and second wasn't a huge
number and if it was such a big problem for the user base it wouldn't
have taken much effort to gather together a group of people and vote
against it. From memory the person that opened the ticket didn't even
care enough to answer a number
of questions asked of them.

I personally like the current process, but if there is enough
consensus for it to be changed whether it be to another naming scheme
or no scheme at all I'm not going to go else where but nobody has
actually stepped up to run the process and work work with the board to
actually get things moving forward which is why we're back in having
this conversation again and nothing has happened. It seems people care
enough to talk about it on mailing lists but not enough to change the
process.

Peter


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:53:18 -0400
From: Máir*n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>
To: Fedora community advisory board
*** <advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of
*** Elements
Message-ID: <1349977998.15432.42.camel@pandamotor>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > http://lwn.net/Articles/488900/
>
> I don't really see this article as evidence the media agrees with
> anything. It is an article reporting on what was happening at the time
> within Fedora. Most of the comments aren't even on topic and the ones
> that are seem pretty mild to my ears.

Here's some examples of media and comments from outside the Fedora
community:

"Fedora 17 arrived on Tuesday following a three-week delay. Nicknamed
Beefy Miracle, the Fedora Project promised 'over
and under-the-bun
improvements that show off the power and flexibility of the advancing
state of free software.' That's a bold claim for a package with such a
ridiculous name. "
Gavin Clarke, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/30/fedora_17_review/

"I tend to think that name is nearly as bad as "Beefy Miracle" (the
codename Fedora 17 has). And I think the link between the two (¹) is
nearly as dubious as the one between F16 and F17 :-/ I got the feeling
the codenames for Fedora(²) (and RHL) that were selected by some Red Hat
engineers internally tended to be better more often than those that got
selected by Fedora contributors in a vote. I wonder if Fedora should get
(back?) to a model where a few experienced and a few new contributors
(those that do a lot of work) get to suggest names (with input from the
community) and
decide the final one when legal gave their blessing to a
few. Sure, that is not a democratic way, but hey, there is a reasons why
meritocratic is used in so many open source projects."
Thorsten Leemhuis,
https://plus.google.com/107616711159256259828/posts/Nxc6kH4UCod

"I suggest that the name of Fedora 19 be "Fedora 19", and that Red Hat
give half of the money this proposal saves them in legal bills to
charity and the other half to their stockholders. If a code name is
required, "Nineteen" will do. "
"Exactly. Codenames are nice if you have good marketing and people
connect the product with the name. Fedora does not do that. So Red hat
should just remove the silly names. "
http://lwn.net/Articles/510090/

"Linux Mint has always been known for beatiful
female names.
Ubuntu for exotic and obscure ones.
And finally, Fedora, for weird and sometimes ugly ones. "
Commenter,
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fedora-17-Will-Be-Named-Beefy-Miracle-226873.shtml

"Such a revulsive name and concept, to find marketing strategies in dead
animal meat."
Commenter,
http://www.internetnews.com/blog/skerner/the-beefy-miracle-begins.-fedora-17-hits-alpha-1.html

"Dumb name. Back handed insult to Hindus and Vegetarians."
Commenter,
http://opensource.com/life/12/5/whats-beefy-miracle-anyway-story-fedora-17-release-name

"Holy cow.
Seriously, what is up with these silly names?"
Commenter,
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?70700-Fedora-18-Is-Codenamed-The-Spherical-Cow&highlight=spherical+cow

"how about fixing pulseaudio instead of thinking up meat product names"
"This is indeed as unprofessional as hell. How hard is it to find some
random normal codenames? Pick random flowergarden name (as opposed to
walled garden), from which beauty blossoms."
"I personally am tired with this whole codename concept. To me, code
names are absolutely useless."
"Who would have thought that a naming process open to the general public
would degenerate into 4chan-style retardation? Okay, so a lot of people
(including myself) probably did, but look how long it took!"
"This list is embarrassing, especially as
a Fedora user.
"I agree, the way code names are in Fedora are useless. They do not
really symbolize anything about the particular release. The ubuntu
codenames are just as silly as "Beefy Miracle" and this list, but at
least they mean something to the particular release. They certainly are
much better about it than just letting a bunch of random people come up
with an idiotic name and voting for them, that is the sad part, people
actually voted for them."
"I imagine just how depressing it is to look for a representative names
in the sea of such nonsense... "
"Embarrassing."
Various commenters,
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?70496-Fedora-18-Might-Be-A-Frankfurter-Or-Spherical-Cow&highlight=spherical+cow

""Spherical Cow" /FACEPALM !"
"They
should have just called it "Silly Name"."
Commenters,
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fedora-18-Will-Be-Named-Spherical-Cow-267294.shtml

"That's got to be the stupidest name I've ever heard of."
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?62262-Fedora-17-Has-A-Tasty-Codename-Beefy-Miracle&highlight=beefy+miracle

"Linux. Welcome to the land of ******* release names."
"Haha, all possible Fedora names are *****. I approve. Go Spherical
Cow!"
"Fedora 18 Santorum edition"
"Can I vote for "none of the above <puke />"?"
https://plus.google.com/105047371315992982745/posts/SqD8N2x4bzT

"Honestly, I think the name of Fedora 18 is a great **** and I propose
to change it immediately to other more formal and attractive. Project
leaders must change it without any democratic process. Spherical Cows,
what the ****? I propose names inspired in people connected with art or
mithology, I think Verne and Leonidas were great names, but Beefy
Miracle is not serious and Spherical Cows are extremly ridiculous."
"After the hotdog incident, I won't be suggesting or voting on any
names."
https://plus.google.com/112917221531140868607/posts/9kPPBD9hK5g

"People talking about a codename? That's what Fedora really needs, huh?
I heard that each codename has to be approved by RH's legal team. If
this is true, it's a waste of money and
time. Enough to stop caring
about codenames altogether."
https://plus.google.com/117529260069625349238/posts/Kc5MnMJoA9g

"...Fedora 17's code name is seriously "Beefy Miracle"? Here I thought
Ubuntu's codenames were pull-words-from-a-hat-tastic."
https://plus.google.com/100290247863975930326/posts/Nv25LituxCF

"This is fake, right?
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/f18-name"
https://plus.google.com/107646837068615384568/posts/Hpjjq5KZbLV

"Jesus ****. When will they start giving them normal names so that users
from windows don't think we're
entirely retarded and avoid linux like a
******* plague."
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?74283-Fedora-19-Might-Be-A-Prime-Rib-Or-Crop-Circle#post290119


>From Fedora Forums, our users:

"I just hope it has nothing to do with cows, beef or miracles. Beefy
Miracle was the stupidest name ever for a release, and I will certainly
be glad when it hits EOL so I don't have to see it mentioned anymore."

"If 'Elastic Horses' is chosen, then I will go back to windows"
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284848

"The trend has been that fedora names get progressively worse. So I'm
expecting something pretty awful."
"Howz abouts we just call them F(xx) from now on. I'd opt
for
that! :dance: It holds a certain sense of professionalism within its
clean and simple look all while displaying all the information one needs
to know."
"i hope they finish with Names after F18 cause there getting stupid with
each release"
"Embarrassing."
"I used to like the idea of release names...... but after attempting to
vote on Fedora 18, for the first time I will abstain. I can't believe
that this load of drivel was all people could come up with. "
"a spherical cow .....worst name ever."
""Cow" again ?!?! Wonder how this name is beneficial for the Artwork
team to theme the release ?! :doh:"
" I thought Beefy Miracle was the stupidest name possible, but They
actually have topped it with the F18 name. :p"

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-277841.html

" Looks like I will have to skip
the F17 release to save the
embarrassment when I tell my friends what OS I am running."
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-269640.html






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inode0 10-11-2012 11:27 PM

Code names
 
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:09 PM, PETER ZOELLER <peter_zoeller@rogers.com> wrote:
> In my humble opinion, code names are meaningless and make no sense other
> than assign a pretty name to a distro but tells nothing with respect to the
> distro. So how meaningful are code names? Here is the exercise to see?
> Rhyme off in order of development ie. development sequence of each Fedora
> distribution by code name only. How many can you even remember? If it is
> so important to have a code name then at least choose a code name that shows
> some kind of progression like a deck of cards.

Hi Peter,

I don't equate something being memorable or even useful with it being
important. Friends often get together for an evening of cards, enjoy
the game and each other's company doing something not intended to be
important - but it is important in my view because of the enjoyment it
brings to those doing it. And I look at the release naming game twice
a year in a similar way. It allows Fedora friends to do something not
very important together that they enjoy doing. So I would rather not
try to make it something important if doing so takes away the
enjoyment of the game.

On the other hand, as all card players know, arguing over the rules of
the game endlessly tends to spoil the game in the end.

We are probably close to the point of needing a different social
activity to replace this one.

John
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