FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora Advisory Board

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:


I think that arguing incessantly about the naming process opens Fedora
up to more ridicule than the names it has produced.

While I've heard folks groan about the Fedora names, I don't think
I've ever heard anyone "ridicule" Fedora for its names.

I've seen this discussion about names pop up multiple times, but it
only seems to enjoy support from a small number of folks who don't
like some of the names picked. Maybe it's time to drop it and accept
that the current system, while not perfect, doesn't need to be
modified or killed.
--
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier


Joe,
I have voiced support for killing all names entirely and only going with
numbers. The lwn article cites me in that. I am not upset about the
current names I honestly do not remember them for more than the day they
are announced, typically. I only care about the waste of time and the
noise generated by the naming discussion.


So - there you have it someone who supports doing away with the naming who
is not upset about the named picked.


-sv

_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:11 PM
inode0
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> > The folks who came up with the naming scheme themselves have said enough
>> > is enough.
>>
>> I think there is a pretty big disconnect between what people think is
>> the reaction and what people at events representing Fedora see as the
>> reaction. I know I have not seen anything at all negative personally
>> at events with non-Fedora people. I only see negativity about the name
>> internally.
>
> Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
> users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
> it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
> because of the language barrier. I remember talking to Tatica about this
> at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.

I am aware of tatica's concerns. I really don't see why this is a big
hurdle. Release names almost never come up in conversations with
people at events anyway and it is easy enough to smile and say "oh,
Beefy Miracle was just Fedora having a little fun" and move on to
important things.

> So maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
> what's going on or were turned off and went to another distro.

Actually for the first time in my experience I was approached by
people who gently ribbed me about the name or who asked a first
question about where it came from. I think it opened doors rather than
closed them but one can never know who didn't come and for what
reason.

John
_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Peter Robinson
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> > The folks who came up with the naming scheme themselves have said enough
>> > is enough.
>>
>> I think there is a pretty big disconnect between what people think is
>> the reaction and what people at events representing Fedora see as the
>> reaction. I know I have not seen anything at all negative personally
>> at events with non-Fedora people. I only see negativity about the name
>> internally.
>
> Ambassadors have reported frustration trying to introduce Fedora to new
> users because they have no idea what the release names mean and feel
> it's an inside joke they aren't welcome to, and struggle to explain them
> because of the language barrier. I remember talking to Tatica about this
> at LGM when the 'spherical cow' codename was announced.

I don't believe moving to a set format such as the periodic table is
going to improve that at all and if they're confused about the release
names are they any less confused about say the Ubuntu naming? I'm not
sure some of the word used in their releases are even translatable
into a lot of languages.

> So maybe non-Fedora people aren't complaining because they have no idea
> what's going on or were turned off and went to another distro.

I also are very unsure about people going to another distribution due
to the name. I don't believe there's any evidence of this what so
ever. Most people I know that don't like the release naming ignore it
and just use the release number.

Just before the release of Fedora 17 there was a board ticket opened
by someone in the Fedora Hindu community about the use of beef in the
naming due to the cow being sacred. They never bothered to bring it up
long before that even though it had been public for months and what's
more the number of people that vote for a release name isn't that high
and the difference in voting between first and second wasn't a huge
number and if it was such a big problem for the user base it wouldn't
have taken much effort to gather together a group of people and vote
against it. From memory the person that opened the ticket didn't even
care enough to answer a number of questions asked of them.

I personally like the current process, but if there is enough
consensus for it to be changed whether it be to another naming scheme
or no scheme at all I'm not going to go else where but nobody has
actually stepped up to run the process and work work with the board to
actually get things moving forward which is why we're back in having
this conversation again and nothing has happened. It seems people care
enough to talk about it on mailing lists but not enough to change the
process.

Peter
_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:53 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > http://lwn.net/Articles/488900/
>
> I don't really see this article as evidence the media agrees with
> anything. It is an article reporting on what was happening at the time
> within Fedora. Most of the comments aren't even on topic and the ones
> that are seem pretty mild to my ears.

Here's some examples of media and comments from outside the Fedora
community:

"Fedora 17 arrived on Tuesday following a three-week delay. Nicknamed
Beefy Miracle, the Fedora Project promised 'over and under-the-bun
improvements that show off the power and flexibility of the advancing
state of free software.' That's a bold claim for a package with such a
ridiculous name. "
Gavin Clarke, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/30/fedora_17_review/

"I tend to think that name is nearly as bad as "Beefy Miracle" (the
codename Fedora 17 has). And I think the link between the two (¹) is
nearly as dubious as the one between F16 and F17 :-/ I got the feeling
the codenames for Fedora(²) (and RHL) that were selected by some Red Hat
engineers internally tended to be better more often than those that got
selected by Fedora contributors in a vote. I wonder if Fedora should get
(back?) to a model where a few experienced and a few new contributors
(those that do a lot of work) get to suggest names (with input from the
community) and decide the final one when legal gave their blessing to a
few. Sure, that is not a democratic way, but hey, there is a reasons why
meritocratic is used in so many open source projects."
Thorsten Leemhuis,
https://plus.google.com/107616711159256259828/posts/Nxc6kH4UCod

"I suggest that the name of Fedora 19 be "Fedora 19", and that Red Hat
give half of the money this proposal saves them in legal bills to
charity and the other half to their stockholders. If a code name is
required, "Nineteen" will do. "
"Exactly. Codenames are nice if you have good marketing and people
connect the product with the name. Fedora does not do that. So Red hat
should just remove the silly names. "
http://lwn.net/Articles/510090/

"Linux Mint has always been known for beatiful female names.
Ubuntu for exotic and obscure ones.
And finally, Fedora, for weird and sometimes ugly ones. "
Commenter,
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fedora-17-Will-Be-Named-Beefy-Miracle-226873.shtml

"Such a revulsive name and concept, to find marketing strategies in dead
animal meat."
Commenter,
http://www.internetnews.com/blog/skerner/the-beefy-miracle-begins.-fedora-17-hits-alpha-1.html

"Dumb name. Back handed insult to Hindus and Vegetarians."
Commenter,
http://opensource.com/life/12/5/whats-beefy-miracle-anyway-story-fedora-17-release-name

"Holy cow. Seriously, what is up with these silly names?"
Commenter,
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?70700-Fedora-18-Is-Codenamed-The-Spherical-Cow&highlight=spherical+cow

"how about fixing pulseaudio instead of thinking up meat product names"
"This is indeed as unprofessional as hell. How hard is it to find some
random normal codenames? Pick random flowergarden name (as opposed to
walled garden), from which beauty blossoms."
"I personally am tired with this whole codename concept. To me, code
names are absolutely useless."
"Who would have thought that a naming process open to the general public
would degenerate into 4chan-style retardation? Okay, so a lot of people
(including myself) probably did, but look how long it took!"
"This list is embarrassing, especially as a Fedora user.
"I agree, the way code names are in Fedora are useless. They do not
really symbolize anything about the particular release. The ubuntu
codenames are just as silly as "Beefy Miracle" and this list, but at
least they mean something to the particular release. They certainly are
much better about it than just letting a bunch of random people come up
with an idiotic name and voting for them, that is the sad part, people
actually voted for them."
"I imagine just how depressing it is to look for a representative names
in the sea of such nonsense... "
"Embarrassing."
Various commenters,
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?70496-Fedora-18-Might-Be-A-Frankfurter-Or-Spherical-Cow&highlight=spherical+cow

""Spherical Cow" /FACEPALM !"
"They should have just called it "Silly Name"."
Commenters,
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fedora-18-Will-Be-Named-Spherical-Cow-267294.shtml

"That's got to be the stupidest name I've ever heard of."
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?62262-Fedora-17-Has-A-Tasty-Codename-Beefy-Miracle&highlight=beefy+miracle

"Linux. Welcome to the land of ******* release names."
"Haha, all possible Fedora names are *****. I approve. Go Spherical
Cow!"
"Fedora 18 Santorum edition"
"Can I vote for "none of the above <puke />"?"
https://plus.google.com/105047371315992982745/posts/SqD8N2x4bzT

"Honestly, I think the name of Fedora 18 is a great **** and I propose
to change it immediately to other more formal and attractive. Project
leaders must change it without any democratic process. Spherical Cows,
what the ****? I propose names inspired in people connected with art or
mithology, I think Verne and Leonidas were great names, but Beefy
Miracle is not serious and Spherical Cows are extremly ridiculous."
"After the hotdog incident, I won't be suggesting or voting on any
names."
https://plus.google.com/112917221531140868607/posts/9kPPBD9hK5g

"People talking about a codename? That's what Fedora really needs, huh?
I heard that each codename has to be approved by RH's legal team. If
this is true, it's a waste of money and time. Enough to stop caring
about codenames altogether."
https://plus.google.com/117529260069625349238/posts/Kc5MnMJoA9g

"...Fedora 17's code name is seriously "Beefy Miracle"? Here I thought
Ubuntu's codenames were pull-words-from-a-hat-tastic."
https://plus.google.com/100290247863975930326/posts/Nv25LituxCF

"This is fake, right?
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/f18-name"
https://plus.google.com/107646837068615384568/posts/Hpjjq5KZbLV

"Jesus ****. When will they start giving them normal names so that users
from windows don't think we're entirely retarded and avoid linux like a
******* plague."
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?74283-Fedora-19-Might-Be-A-Prime-Rib-Or-Crop-Circle#post290119


From Fedora Forums, our users:

"I just hope it has nothing to do with cows, beef or miracles. Beefy
Miracle was the stupidest name ever for a release, and I will certainly
be glad when it hits EOL so I don't have to see it mentioned anymore."

"If 'Elastic Horses' is chosen, then I will go back to windows"
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284848

"The trend has been that fedora names get progressively worse. So I'm
expecting something pretty awful."
"Howz abouts we just call them F(xx) from now on. I'd opt for
that! :dance: It holds a certain sense of professionalism within its
clean and simple look all while displaying all the information one needs
to know."
"i hope they finish with Names after F18 cause there getting stupid with
each release"
"Embarrassing."
"I used to like the idea of release names...... but after attempting to
vote on Fedora 18, for the first time I will abstain. I can't believe
that this load of drivel was all people could come up with. "
"a spherical cow .....worst name ever."
""Cow" again ?!?! Wonder how this name is beneficial for the Artwork
team to theme the release ?! :doh:"
" I thought Beefy Miracle was the stupidest name possible, but They
actually have topped it with the F18 name. "

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-277841.html

" Looks like I will have to skip the F17 release to save the
embarrassment when I tell my friends what OS I am running."
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-269640.html




_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 12:05 -0500, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I completely agree with Máirín. Beefy Miracle and Spherical Cow just sounds
> > silly to me. I would hate to see the Fedora status quo become silly, and
> > ridiculed by the Linux community.
>
> I think that arguing incessantly about the naming process opens Fedora
> up to more ridicule than the names it has produced.
>
> While I've heard folks groan about the Fedora names, I don't think
> I've ever heard anyone "ridicule" Fedora for its names.

See the post I just made.

~m

_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:55 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Máirín Duffy wrote:


On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 11:44 -0500, inode0 wrote:

http://lwn.net/Articles/488900/


I don't really see this article as evidence the media agrees with
anything. It is an article reporting on what was happening at the time
within Fedora. Most of the comments aren't even on topic and the ones
that are seem pretty mild to my ears.


Here's some examples of media and comments from outside the Fedora
community:

"Fedora 17 arrived on Tuesday following a three-week delay. Nicknamed
Beefy Miracle, the Fedora Project promised 'over and under-the-bun
improvements that show off the power and flexibility of the advancing
state of free software.' That's a bold claim for a package with such a
ridiculous name. "
Gavin Clarke, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/30/fedora_17_review/

"I tend to think that name is nearly as bad as "Beefy Miracle" (the
codename Fedora 17 has). And I think the link between the two (¹) is
nearly as dubious as the one between F16 and F17 :-/ I got the feeling
the codenames for Fedora(²) (and RHL) that were selected by some Red Hat
engineers internally tended to be better more often than those that got
selected by Fedora contributors in a vote. I wonder if Fedora should get
(back?) to a model where a few experienced and a few new contributors
(those that do a lot of work) get to suggest names (with input from the
community) and decide the final one when legal gave their blessing to a
few. Sure, that is not a democratic way, but hey, there is a reasons why
meritocratic is used in so many open source projects."
Thorsten Leemhuis,
https://plus.google.com/107616711159256259828/posts/Nxc6kH4UCod

"I suggest that the name of Fedora 19 be "Fedora 19", and that Red Hat
give half of the money this proposal saves them in legal bills to
charity and the other half to their stockholders. If a code name is
required, "Nineteen" will do. "
"Exactly. Codenames are nice if you have good marketing and people
connect the product with the name. Fedora does not do that. So Red hat
should just remove the silly names. "
http://lwn.net/Articles/510090/






All of the above are valid, imo.

All after that fall into the 'internet is full of jerks in comments' and
should be ignored.


-sv
_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Luis Villa
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> All after that fall into the 'internet is full of jerks in comments' and
> should be ignored.

+1. Don't let the loudmouths determine project policy - unless you've
got a really, really good reason to think they are representative.

Luis
_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 18:14 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> Just before the release of Fedora 17 there was a board ticket opened
> by someone in the Fedora Hindu community about the use of beef in the
> naming due to the cow being sacred. They never bothered to bring it up
> long before that even though it had been public for months and what's
> more the number of people that vote for a release name isn't that high
> and the difference in voting between first and second wasn't a huge
> number and if it was such a big problem for the user base it wouldn't
> have taken much effort to gather together a group of people and vote
> against it. From memory the person that opened the ticket didn't even
> care enough to answer a number of questions asked of them.

He followed up with you guys a number of times. I watched it on the
list.

I will say I was a supporter of Beefy Miracle, but there were times went
it went much too far. For example, I can't participate in Fedora events
when hot dogs are being handed out, because I can't eat them - I've
stood manning a Fedora booth with the strong smell of hot dogs cooking
right in front of me. (Seriously unpleasant for a vegetarian.)

It's not offensive IMHO, but it is childish and annoying. Look at the
Fedora 19 proposals so far. The vast majority are juvenile. Prime Rib?
Elastic Horses? Really???

> I personally like the current process, but if there is enough
> consensus for it to be changed whether it be to another naming scheme
> or no scheme at all I'm not going to go else where but nobody has
> actually stepped up to run the process and work work with the board to
> actually get things moving forward which is why we're back in having
> this conversation again and nothing has happened. It seems people care
> enough to talk about it on mailing lists but not enough to change the
> process.

I created and came up with the majority of the suggestions on the
theming process wiki page:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Suggestions_for_Fedora_Codename_Theme

I have been waiting for months for the board to set up an election for
this as asked for. We got one election which was poorly put together and
led to no solid conclusions since there were only two options, not the
three that had been asked for: "Keep a codename" vs "Don't keep a
codename" instead of "Keep the process as-is", "Get a better one", "No
codenames."

We're not simply whining about it, a bunch of us have been putting
together these suggestions and looking to the board for guidance for
quite some time now.

~m

_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 06:07 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 10:58 -0700, Luis Villa wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > All after that fall into the 'internet is full of jerks in comments' and
> > should be ignored.
>
> +1. Don't let the loudmouths determine project policy - unless you've
> got a really, really good reason to think they are representative.

Search for articles announcing the codenames and read through the
comments; the majority are negative.

Have we now gone from:

"Nobody outside of Fedora cares"

to

"Okay, people outside of Fedora think it's stupid too, but since they're
rude Internet jerks we should pretend they don't exist"

??

I'd certainly like the folks who work on the project and don't want
their work to be a joke to dictate the policy.....

~m

_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 
Old 10-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Fedora naming proposal based on Periodic Table of Elements

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Máirín Duffy wrote:


On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 10:58 -0700, Luis Villa wrote:

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

All after that fall into the 'internet is full of jerks in comments' and
should be ignored.


+1. Don't let the loudmouths determine project policy - unless you've
got a really, really good reason to think they are representative.


Search for articles announcing the codenames and read through the
comments; the majority are negative.

Have we now gone from:

"Nobody outside of Fedora cares"

to

"Okay, people outside of Fedora think it's stupid too, but since they're
rude Internet jerks we should pretend they don't exist"

??

I'd certainly like the folks who work on the project and don't want
their work to be a joke to dictate the policy.....


Mo,
There's always going to be people who are hateful. Right now I'm less
concerned with them and more concerned with time wasted and noise
generated.


Rather than focus on whether or not the names are silly or detrimental to
fedora's 'brand' let's focus on whether or not we need them or if the time
spent on them is a good trade to what value we might derive from them.


-sv
_______________________________________________
advisory-board mailing list
advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 08:35 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org