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Old 11-28-2007, 06:38 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

seth vidal wrote:


I'm not positive but this doesn't seem like a board decision. If the
releng, fesco and infrastructure teams are at an impasse we can take it
up for discussion but I don't see a reason to not let those groups do
what they're supposed to do.


Well, it has already been discussed in fedora-infrastructure list with
no agreement on whether this is something we should do or not and that's
the reason it is being escalated to the Fedora Project Board. IMO it is
certainly something the Fedora Project Board should look into
encouraging for two reasons.


It seems the natural next step for being a better upstream after
enabling spins to look at what we can do to enable derivatives (such as
OLPC or the work Marvell is doing) which are not just straight subsets
of the Fedora repository and it could potentially help us evaluate
whether we want to move to distributed SCM's (which also seems to have
been discussed without any decision repeatedly). Both of these should be
considered by the board individually and in this context too.


Rahul

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Old 11-28-2007, 01:26 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

seth vidal wrote:


When last I looked it sure sounded like fedora-infrastructure thought it
was a duplication of what we already have and an odd duplication at
that.


Atleast some people in the team seem to be supportive of that effort.

Moreover, it wasn't like fedora-infrastructure couldn't come to a

unanimous decision on the subject, if you read the original thread it
was more like no one cared a whole huge amount and the subject just
died.


The question as I now see it is whether the Fedora Project Board cares
about the use cases described and wants to support that. Previous
discussions about moving to distributed SCM's were focused on the
advantages (or lack of that) to package maintainers. Atleast some
derivative distributions find it useful and moving to a distributed SCM
would avoid the need to duplicate package CVS under git.


Enabling spins was a board decision. Is supporting the needs of
derivative distributions a equivalent priority? I think the answer to
that should come from the Fedora Project Board.


Rahul

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Old 11-28-2007, 01:35 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:56:23 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> The question as I now see it is whether the Fedora Project Board
> cares about the use cases described and wants to support that.
> Previous discussions about moving to distributed SCM's were focused
> on the advantages (or lack of that) to package maintainers. Atleast
> some derivative distributions find it useful and moving to a
> distributed SCM would avoid the need to duplicate package CVS under
> git.
>
> Enabling spins was a board decision. Is supporting the needs of
> derivative distributions a equivalent priority? I think the answer
> to that should come from the Fedora Project Board.


The problem is that we don't want these downstreams to become dependent
on a copy of the content, which may or may not be valid over time, or
may or may not be continued over time. If it's an experiment, that's
what RFRs (Request for Resource) are for, I've used an RFR in the past
to do a short term experiment with a direct conversion of dist-cvs to
hg, and to git. However they had expected end times and the resources
were recycled.

I don't think anybody disagrees that we should move to another SCM that
allows for better downstream interaction. However just a direct copy
of our workflow to git doesn't help. Nobody wants to work on the hard
problem, thus nothing gets done, no matter /who/ wants it.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:01 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

Jesse Keating wrote:


I don't think anybody disagrees that we should move to another SCM that
allows for better downstream interaction. However just a direct copy
of our workflow to git doesn't help.


If it doesn't help people wouldn't have requested it in the first place.
It might be the case that we don't want that as a final plan but this
could be a incremental process. Provide a copy and mark it as
experimental. See how well it used and then if the advantages are
compelling to more people, some might take the initiative to move us to
a distributed SCM altogether.


Nobody wants to work on the hard

problem, thus nothing gets done, no matter /who/ wants it.


Has the Fedora Board recognized that moving to a distributed SCM is
desirable for downstream folks and asked Fedora infrastructure to work
on that or indicated in any way that this is the future direction? I
think this is one of the instances where the Fedora Board should take on
a more active role.


Rahul

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Old 11-28-2007, 02:14 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Has the Fedora Board recognized that moving to a distributed SCM is
desirable for downstream folks and asked Fedora infrastructure to work
on that or indicated in any way that this is the future direction?


A SIG was started to address this:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SCMSig

-- Rex

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Old 11-28-2007, 02:30 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Jesse Keating wrote:


I don't think anybody disagrees that we should move to another SCM that
allows for better downstream interaction. However just a direct copy
of our workflow to git doesn't help.


If it doesn't help people wouldn't have requested it in the first
place. It might be the case that we don't want that as a final plan
but this could be a incremental process. Provide a copy and mark it as
experimental. See how well it used and then if the advantages are
compelling to more people, some might take the initiative to move us
to a distributed SCM altogether.


People request all sorts of things. In my mind the pain of backups,
jobs, storage and dealing with hg, bzr and mercurial people wanting the
same thing vastly out weighs the benefit (which I'm still unclear of)
Additionally on the list it was determined if someone else wanted to
host this, we can make access to the raw cvs repo easier.



Nobody wants to work on the hard

problem, thus nothing gets done, no matter /who/ wants it.


Has the Fedora Board recognized that moving to a distributed SCM is
desirable for downstream folks and asked Fedora infrastructure to work
on that or indicated in any way that this is the future direction? I
think this is one of the instances where the Fedora Board should take
on a more active role.


To date no one has had the combination of vision, persistence and just
plain craziness to put together a comprehensive plan, propose it to the
list, put a proof of concept together, and then convince people it's
what we need. This is no small task and since CVS is working (we are
putting in source and getting RPM's somehow), it could likely be some
time before it happens.


-Mike

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Old 11-28-2007, 05:15 PM
Josh Boyer
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:31:40 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> >Nobody wants to work on the hard
> > problem, thus nothing gets done, no matter /who/ wants it.
>
> Has the Fedora Board recognized that moving to a distributed SCM is
> desirable for downstream folks and asked Fedora infrastructure to work
> on that or indicated in any way that this is the future direction? I
> think this is one of the instances where the Fedora Board should take on
> a more active role.

Frankly, I don't think the Board has any business in this discussion
yet. There are known pain points in providing this (and switching SCMs
all together), the benefits to Fedora are little to none at the moment,
and it can be hosted elsewhere.

Your insistence at having them declare something one way or another
seems to be nothing more than whining because you aren't getting your
way.

josh

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Old 11-28-2007, 05:18 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

Josh Boyer wrote:

Frankly, I don't think the Board has any business in this discussion
yet. There are known pain points in providing this (and switching SCMs
all together), the benefits to Fedora are little to none at the moment,
and it can be hosted elsewhere.


As has been indicated before, the board already has a stake in the
discussion having expressed the desire to see Fedora as a better
upstream and having initiated the SCM SIG. So it is not really a
question of whether they should have a role but whether they should have
a more active role in the discussions. Apparently the problem is now
lack of people to do the tasks involved which is ok as long as the
desire is clearly expressed so others can volunteer if they are interested.



Your insistence at having them declare something one way or another
seems to be nothing more than whining because you aren't getting your
way.


I really have no personal stake on it. So this is a gross mis
characterization and only distracts us from having a conversation about
real issues. Please avoid doing so.


Rahul

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Old 11-28-2007, 05:27 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:48:04 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> I really have no personal stake on it. So this is a gross mis
> characterization and only distracts us from having a conversation
> about real issues. Please avoid doing so.

What are you really looking for the board to say here? "We want it."
Ok, then what? Work still has to get done, and there is still nobody
volunteering to do it.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:33 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Hosting and Supporting GIT conversion of Fedora CVS to enable downstream development efforts and distributions

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:48:04 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


I really have no personal stake on it. So this is a gross mis
characterization and only distracts us from having a conversation

about real issues. Please avoid doing so.



What are you really looking for the board to say here? "We want it."
Ok, then what? Work still has to get done, and there is still nobody
volunteering to do it.



In fairness, when the board does say "we want it" and no one is
volunteering to do it, it falls on me. This sort of situation has come
up very rarely in the past. But I'm not under the impression that the
board actually does a copy of cvs in git that gets updated periodically
for people to use at their leisure. I'd think the board might only get
involved once a few proposals are put forth and the community can't
decide which one to use. Up till now though no comprehensive proposals
have been put forth "Lets use git" isn't a proposal.


-Mike

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