Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:40 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
<johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/11/2012 02:35 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:28 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
>> <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Given the recent announcement regarding the new Fedora program manager
>>> and
>>> since I got asked I just forward those question to the right people who
>>> can
>>> clarify these things for people preferable on a wiki page(s) in
>>> foreseeable
>>> future.
>>>
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Engineering probably answers a
>> number of your questions.
>
>
> Yeah well unfortunately that one does not answer for example "Fedora Program
> Manager" who he is, what he does, and if he's being payed for serving this
> position or is doing so out of his or hers own free time.

The program manager is a paid role employed by Red Hat. The person's
job is schedule related as well as some house keeping tasks. I'm sure
there's a job description somewhere.

Peter
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:40 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
<johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/11/2012 02:35 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:28 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
>> <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Given the recent announcement regarding the new Fedora program manager
>>> and
>>> since I got asked I just forward those question to the right people who
>>> can
>>> clarify these things for people preferable on a wiki page(s) in
>>> foreseeable
>>> future.
>>>
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Engineering probably answers a
>> number of your questions.
>
>
> Yeah well unfortunately that one does not answer for example "Fedora Program
> Manager" who he is, what he does, and if he's being payed for serving this
> position or is doing so out of his or hers own free time.

I answered why that is in subsequent emails. Reading all the replies
you got would be good.

>>> Who are Fedora personal?
>>
>> I interpret 'Fedora personel' as people being paid to work on Fedora,
>> which the above wiki page covers. There are, of course, a very large
>> number of people that volunteer their time to work on various things
>> in Fedora as well.
>
>
> So people that get paid to work on Fedora are called fedora personal while
> the individuals that contribute their own free time are not .

personal != personnel. You keep making that typo, or if it isn't a
typo I really have no idea what you mean.

Anyway, I said I interpreted the question as such because the word
personnel is defined as:

"The body of persons employed by or active in an organization, business,
or service."

employed being the key word. Words mean things. Volunteers are not
employees.

> That's... Interesting to say the least..

Not really. Employed and volunteer contributors are all part of the
same community. Eric's reply also pointed out that the question seemed
to be posed rather pointedly. If you meant to ask some other question
other than what I've interpreted, please clarify.

josh
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:40 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
> <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yeah well unfortunately that one does not answer for example "Fedora Program
>> Manager" who he is, what he does, and if he's being payed for serving this
>> position or is doing so out of his or hers own free time.
>
> The program manager is a paid role employed by Red Hat. The person's
> job is schedule related as well as some house keeping tasks. I'm sure
> there's a job description somewhere.

Short description including excerpt from the public job posting can be
seen here.

http://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/are-you-the-next-fedora-program-manager/

This position was advertised at least the last two times it has been
filled, I don't know its history prior to the time of John Poelstra
filling it or whether it even existed prior to that.

John
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

inode0 (inode0@gmail.com) said:
> Short description including excerpt from the public job posting can be
> seen here.
>
> http://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/are-you-the-next-fedora-program-manager/
>
> This position was advertised at least the last two times it has been
> filled, I don't know its history prior to the time of John Poelstra
> filling it or whether it even existed prior to that.

It did not exist prior to that.

Bill
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:51 AM, inode0 <inode0@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:40 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
>> <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah well unfortunately that one does not answer for example "Fedora Program
>>> Manager" who he is, what he does, and if he's being payed for serving this
>>> position or is doing so out of his or hers own free time.
>>
>> The program manager is a paid role employed by Red Hat. The person's
>> job is schedule related as well as some house keeping tasks. I'm sure
>> there's a job description somewhere.
>
> Short description including excerpt from the public job posting can be
> seen here.
>
> http://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/are-you-the-next-fedora-program-manager/
>
> This position was advertised at least the last two times it has been
> filled, I don't know its history prior to the time of John Poelstra
> filling it or whether it even existed prior to that.

John was the first person to occupy a paid Fedora Program Manager
position.

josh
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
<johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/11/2012 02:38 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> Generally, for any of these paid positions at RH, announcements will go
>> out
>> to Planet Fedora at the least, and occasionally the list. Other companies
>> may have roles in Fedora they pay people for, and that is up to them how
>> they advertise it.
>
> Well Red Hat is also very good at inventing Fedora positions and planting
> people in the more often then not outside the community thou the corporate
> has been getting better at recruiting community members to fill those
> positions. Which certainly is good for the community member who gets to fill
> that position but arguably not so much for the project or the community in
> whole which depends on the position and the relevant corporate interest
> behind it.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. With the exception of maybe 2 or 3
people on that wiki page, all of them have either been on Fedora since
it's inception or hired directly from the community. Also, I don't see
how the project is worse off having people being paid to improve it.

> Arguably for each of these paid corporate positions within the project they
> should be presided with <corporate><position> and or <team>.
>
> So "Fedora_Engineering" would become "Red Hat's Fedora Engineering" and
> let's for example say that Intel had a people working within the project it
> would be called "Intel's Fedora Engineering" and all of this listed under
> Fedora Engineering page in our wiki.

That could be done, but I don't see what purpose it would serve.

> Of course listing non paid community members first since their contribution
> is more valuable then those that are doing this as a part of their $dayjob
> =)

Our community members are invaluable. Whether they are paid or not and
by whom is immaterial.

If the intention of your questions are to somehow disparage or devalue
people in the community simply because they are paid to work on Fedora,
then you can consider this my last reply. I have neither the time nor
inclination to suffer questioning that serves no purpose other than
attempting to fracture the community.

josh
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:40 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
<johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
> So people that get paid to work on Fedora are called fedora personal while
> the individuals that contribute their own free time are not .
>
> That's... Interesting to say the least..


Not really. Even in the volunteer driven non-profit world.. there is
always some language that differentiates paid staffers from
volunteers. Treating these people the same is incongruity with the
reality of how large volunteer focused efforts work.

I don't care if its a sports club, or the boy scouts, or a church.. or
whatever. Don't get too hung up on the labels or the terminology. I
fully expect that at some point in the growth of any volunteer centric
effort, critical tasks for ANY organization that makes use of
volunteer labor will end up needing paid staff that provide planning
and project continuity and much need cat herding.

If you get hung up on what we call those people in this community, you
are doing it wrong.

if you need to understand the purpose of a specific defined role...
then please ask for clarification on that.

if you need to understand the process how Red Hat internally decides
on how to internally allocate resources for fedora tasked employee
time.. then please ask for clarification on that.

if you need to understand how Fedora as a (larger than just Red Hat's
interest) would encourage _any_ individual business who want to
contribute as a business to provide staffed manpower. Or how such a
business should engage with Fedora governance to fill a needed fedora
tasked role inside their own fenceline... please ask for clarification
on that.

But don't get hung up on the terminology on what we called paid
staffers and what we call volunteers.
-jef
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

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On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:43:31 -0400
Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Bill Nottingham
> <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Josh Boyer (jwboyer@gmail.com) said:
> >> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:28 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
> >> <johannbg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Given the recent announcement regarding the new Fedora program
> >> > manager and since I got asked I just forward those question to
> >> > the right people who can clarify these things for people
> >> > preferable on a wiki page(s) in foreseeable future.
> >> >
> >>
> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Engineering probably answers a
> >> number of your questions.
> >>
> >> > Who are Fedora personal?
> >>
> >> I interpret 'Fedora personel' as people being paid to work on
> >> Fedora, which the above wiki page covers. There are, of course, a
> >> very large number of people that volunteer their time to work on
> >> various things in Fedora as well.
> >
> > At RH there is also the FPL (paid position at RH, filled via
> > applications, both internal and external) and the Fedora Progra
> > Manager (paid position at RH, filled via applications, both
> > internal and external.)
>
> I believe the Fedora rel-eng lead is handled the same way. The reason
> none of those 3 positions are listed on the wiki page is that they do
> not have Spot as their manager. It's something we could add to the
> page for clarification purposes though.

I am paid by Red Hat to work full time on Fedora release engineering,
looking after Fedora Secondary arches and to represent EPEL inside of
Red Hat. There is also a Red Hat employee who has Fedora PPC release
engineering as part of his task list along with other internal Red Hat
tasks that he does. both of us Report to the same boss. who is not
Tom. there is also a lot of developers who have Fedora and internal Red
Hat development and package maintenance in the list of tasks that they
do. as well as the Red Hat employees who do Fedora tasks purely
voluntarily you can not assume that because someone is a Red Hat
employee they are working on Fedora for Red Hat.

Dennis
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Josh Boyer wrote:

John was the first person to occupy a paid Fedora Program Manager
position.


Correct.

John Poelstra was the first official Fedora Program Manager.

After doing a superb job for a few years, he moved into a different
group at Red Hat and Robyn Bergeron, who had been leading Fedora
Marketing as a volunteer, was hired by Red Hat to take over the FPM job.


Now that Robyn is the FPL, a new FPM was needed, which led to the job
being "open" again, and the recent announcement of Jaroslav filling the
role.


--Max
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Regarding personnel changes in Fedora
 

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Eric Christensen
<eric@christensenplace.us> wrote:
> The question seems to use a biased either/or question that someone
> filling the position will either be a RH employee or a community
> member where it could be a community member that is hired by RH
> specifically for this job. Just because someone gets hired by RH
> doesn't mean they are no longer a community member, IMO.

I'll even take this one step farther -- someone (like myself!) might
start out as a community member, get hired by Red Hat to fill a
particular role, and at some point in the future leave Red Hat for
other pursuits. If you ask me though, I was a community member the
entire time. I didn't stop becoming a community member just because I
worked for Red Hat.

--
Jared Smith
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