Fwd: #135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
 

-------- Original Message --------



Subject:
Re: [Fedora Board issue tracker] #135: Connotations
Problems with Beefy Miracle


Date:
Wed, 21 Mar 2012 12:39:32 -0000


From:
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#135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
Reporter: rajesh | Owner: somebody
Type: task | Status: new
Priority: major | Milestone:
Component: Fedora Project | Resolution:
Keywords: Connotations, Fedora 17, Beefy | Blocked By:
Miracle |
Blocking: |
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------

Comment (by cwickert):

Preface: I am a vegetarian myself, but I am a supporter of Beefy Miracle.
Beefy Miracle has a 10 year history in Red Hat and Fedora. It first
appeared in Red Hat Linux 7.3 which was released in May 2002 and I think
it's great that Fedora 17 marks the 10 anniversary of both RHL 7.3 (one of
the best releases ever) and Beefy Miracle.

Replying to [ticket:135 rajesh]:
> Beefy Miracle is having a huge negative cultural, social, and political
connotation with respect to India and several religions of India and
world.

Fedora is an international, non-religious and non-political project. The
name "Beefy Miracle" was chosen by our contributors and I am afraid that
if we let our international community vote, we will always upset some
regions, ideologies, regions or just people, even if it is certainly not
our intention.

> Even I can find there is one direct meaning of 'Beefy' is also there -
filled with beef: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beefy

"Beefy Miracle" is a fixed term and not two words. I mean, you would not
analyze the words "Micky" and "mouse" separately, would you? If you would,
I guess you would also find something negative about mouses (spread
diseases, many people are afraid of them) or the name Micky (too American,
cultural imperialism). But that's not how it works. It's a fixed term.
It's Micky Mouse, a cute little mouse that (almost) everybody loves.

> [http://beefymiracle.org Beefy Miracle] is the code name for fedora 17
and the pix shown there on this promotion iste of of a food item filled
with beef. I don't feel there is any connect between the typical meaning
of 'beefy' word with the image.

Right, the 'typical' meaning - whatever you consider it - is not connected
because it is a fixed term. The term refers to the hot dog that you see on
the picture.

> And please check here as well how our community understand 'beefy' word
when selecting
[http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_18 Fedora 18
Naming], mainly thier context is beef only.

I hardly see anything with beef there, most suggestions do not even
involve meat.

> Some Links that can show how it is a wrong selection with respect to
Indian larger community as well as govt of India and in particular
religions like Hindu, Boddha, Jainas, Sikhs etc.

Again, we are not political and not religious. We do not need to follow
religious believes or political views. In fact we 'must' not follow any
of them because this means that we will offend others.

> "The State shall endeavour to organise agriculture and animal husbandry
on modern and scientific lines and shall, in particular, take steps for
preserving and improving the breeds, and prohibiting the slaughter, of
cows and calves and other milch and draught cattle."

"modern and scientific" does not mix with the prohibition of slaughtering
cows, because from a scientific point of view there is nothing that makes
cows different from other animals we use to slaughter. This is a good
example of why we should not appease the specific believes of one
religion. Religions are not based on ratio but on believes.

> "The cow is considered sacred by most Hindus and hence beef is
considered taboo in many Indian states, and therefore most restaurants do
not serve it. However beef is consumed by people of other religions and
certain sections of Hindus. Beef is commonly sold in restaurants in the
North-Eastern states, Goa and Kerala. Apart from this, international
restaurants (primarily located in urban areas) too serve beef dishes
according to their usual menus."

And have there been protests against these restaurants? Did you already
ask them to stop serving meat?

> So there is a need of proper connotation analysis before going for the
any name and so for this also.

I fully agree. We need to filter out the potentially offending names
'before' it comes to a vote. The board already does this, but obviously
none of us was aware of your concerns. Therefor we need our community to
help us. I appreciate your ticket as an attempt to do so.

> Similarly, prima facie, I feel that "Juicy Bacon" is also loaded with
very very negative connotation from Fedora 18 name selection list.

I don't really know what connotation you have about "Juicy Bacon", but I
agree that it is a bad name. I am pretty sure we will not have something
with meat or even food again for F18.


P.S.: I hope you are not offended by my reply. That is certainly not my
intention, I just want you to question your point of view, because from
mine, many of your reasons are hard to understand. Because of our
different cultural background we are too difficult to fully agree.

As an international project we should be proud of our diversity. It is a
chance and a burden at the same time, Fedora will face this problem often
and we can do our best to respect others and their views.

--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/135#comment:1>
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Fwd: #135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
 

-------- Original Message --------



Subject:
Re: [Fedora Board issue tracker] #135: Connotations
Problems with Beefy Miracle


Date:
Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:56:35 -0000


From:
Fedora Board issue tracker
<board-trac@fedorahosted.org>


Reply-To:

board-private@lists.fedoraproject.org


CC:
board-private@lists.fedoraproject.org







#135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
Reporter: rajesh | Owner: somebody
Type: task | Status: new
Priority: major | Milestone:
Component: Fedora Project | Resolution:
Keywords: Connotations, Fedora 17, Beefy | Blocked By:
Miracle |
Blocking: |
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------

Comment (by jreznik):

Forwarding my response to Board Ticket (with a few modification as a
response to cwickert's post)

---
The current process is - community members suggest the name, there's
publicly accessible list for everyone [2], then Board goes through the
suggested names list to remove the clear examples of names breaking the
rules (yeah, usually it's one search term in Google to find out the name
has to be ruled out, but that's Board deal ;-) and this list is sent to
Red Hat legal for proper legal review.

Voting is the open for everybody with FAS account. We try to make it
transparent and clear, and easy to join. Step into! Vote!

The rules are not only strict based on legal demands (existing trademark)
but also we have one very similar rule - "Names of living people". The
idea is not to offend anyone by using his/hers name. Usual joke is - who
we have to kill to name the release after )

What could be the solution for this? I really don't want any strict rules
(I think these are already strict enough and I understand why), let's use
the freedom not being the corporation to release just another boring
product. But good way is just to go through the list of suggested names
and comment there any possible issues to let Board members know, that it
should be considered in final decision. As
Board members we are not skilled in cultural/social/political aspects of
all the parts of world and believe me, we do not want to offend anyone
just to have a fun And I believe it will be considered
in making the final list just using common sense.

PS: as an European Board member I have sometimes difficulties to
understand some US cultural links or language games

PS2: there's another precedent that we're not completely apolitical -
uberpackeger rename to provenpackager

--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/135#comment:2>
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Fwd: #135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
 

-------- Original Message --------



Subject:
Re: [Fedora Board issue tracker] #135: Connotations
Problems with Beefy Miracle


Date:
Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:59:53 -0000


From:
Fedora Board issue tracker
<board-trac@fedorahosted.org>


Reply-To:

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board-private@lists.fedoraproject.org







#135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
Reporter: rajesh | Owner: somebody
Type: task | Status: new
Priority: major | Milestone:
Component: Fedora Project | Resolution:
Keywords: Connotations, Fedora 17, Beefy | Blocked By:
Miracle |
Blocking: |
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------

Comment (by rajesh):

Replying to [comment:1 cwickert]:
> Preface: I am a vegetarian myself, but I am a supporter of Beefy
Miracle. Beefy Miracle has a 10 year history in Red Hat and Fedora. It
first appeared in Red Hat Linux 7.3 which was released in May 2002 and I
think it's great that Fedora 17 marks the 10 anniversary of both RHL 7.3
(one of the best releases ever) and Beefy Miracle.

If just simply a name, I have no such objection as well. Personally I and
my wfie are pure veg but my son of 10 yrs eats everything...I have no
objection what he should eat. Personal is personal. Again, I am just
pointing it out to understand the process of connotation analysis and why
we should add a process like this in our name selection process to make
the naming more acceptable. And here I insist that the whole points I am
raising here is nothing to do with just my personal belief system.

>
> Replying to [ticket:135 rajesh]:
> > Beefy Miracle is having a huge negative cultural, social, and
political connotation with respect to India and several religions of India
and world.
>
> Fedora is an international, non-religious and non-political project. The
name "Beefy Miracle" was chosen by our contributors and I am afraid that
if we let our international community vote, we will always upset some
regions, ideologies, regions or just people, even if it is certainly not
our intention.
>

I know and I am also proud to be a Fedora user and contributor. I also
share same views about Fedora. But since it is an international project so
it has more responsibility associated with its freedom. Voting is good but
number can be the only game changer then it is a chance that one majority
community belonging to some special culture can come in a position that
can make them behave like an autocrats very unitentinally. So some checks
are required. Just imagine if we know that the xyz name is the popular
choice, but at the same time the xyz is having potential to be a
connotationaly wrong choice, then we can tell the voter that the name
might be good but unintentinally we can hurt some group, so why not choose
some different one. I believe that our community is having great openness
and they respect the diversity issue.

> > Even I can find there is one direct meaning of 'Beefy' is also there -
filled with beef: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beefy
>
> "Beefy Miracle" is a fixed term and not two words. I mean, you would not
analyze the words "Micky" and "mouse" separately, would you? If you would,
I guess you would also find something negative about mouses (spread
diseases, many people are afraid of them) or the name Micky (too American,
cultural imperialism). But that's not how it works. It's a fixed term.
It's Micky Mouse, a cute little mouse that (almost) everybody loves.
>

Connotation Analysis is an study area of globalization and localization
world and as per this subject, when checking for Connotation, eg. Beefy
Miracle, 'Beefy' and 'Miracle' 'Beefy Miracle' all are the part of the
analysis.

> > [http://beefymiracle.org Beefy Miracle] is the code name for fedora 17
and the pix shown there on this promotion iste of of a food item filled
with beef. I don't feel there is any connect between the typical meaning
of 'beefy' word with the image.
>
> Right, the 'typical' meaning - whatever you consider it - is not
connected because it is a fixed term. The term refers to the hot dog that
you see on the picture.
>

Hot Dog - beef is the main ingredient of it and here comes the problem.
But here just Hot Dog is not that much wrong. Here in hot dog the 'word'
beef is not 'visible'. But in Beefy Miracle it is visible.

> > And please check here as well how our community understand 'beefy'
word when selecting
[http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_18 Fedora 18
Naming], mainly thier context is beef only.
>
> I hardly see anything with beef there, most suggestions do not even
involve meat.
>
> > Some Links that can show how it is a wrong selection with respect to
Indian larger community as well as govt of India and in particular
religions like Hindu, Boddha, Jainas, Sikhs etc.
>
> Again, we are not political and not religious. We do not need to follow
religious believes or political views. In fact we 'must' not follow any
of them because this means that we will offend others.
>

We should not follow any political or religious thought, I agree. Just
take one example, 'owl': I europe it is associated with magic and wisdom
but in India 'owl' is just another word for fool. We won't like to call
'Fedora Owl' here in India. People will laugh like anything :-).

Probably this example can help. So connotaion is just to check for any of
this problem.

> > "The State shall endeavour to organise agriculture and animal
husbandry on modern and scientific lines and shall, in particular, take
steps for preserving and improving the breeds, and prohibiting the
slaughter, of cows and calves and other milch and draught cattle."
>
> "modern and scientific" does not mix with the prohibition of
slaughtering cows, because from a scientific point of view there is
nothing that makes cows different from other animals we use to slaughter.
This is a good example of why we should not appease the specific believes
of one religion. Religions are not based on ratio but on believes.
>

This article of constitution of India just here to ensure a support for
such a culturally sensitive issues. Several states have strict laws for
this one, and apart from some very big cities ( here also very few) it is
almost impossible to find beef in Indian restraunt. You cannot find any
McDonald here serving burger of having beef. Only chicken and fish, you
will find here in McDonald!!! People don't go to eat in a restraunt who
serve beef, pork etc.

> > "The cow is considered sacred by most Hindus and hence beef is
considered taboo in many Indian states, and therefore most restaurants do
not serve it. However beef is consumed by people of other religions and
certain sections of Hindus. Beef is commonly sold in restaurants in the
North-Eastern states, Goa and Kerala. Apart from this, international
restaurants (primarily located in urban areas) too serve beef dishes
according to their usual menus."
>
> And have there been protests against these restaurants? Did you already
ask them to stop serving meat?
>

There are lots of organization continuosly organizing this type of
protests. They protest against caw slaughter often. Belive me I don't
belong to any of this organization :-)

> > So there is a need of proper connotation analysis before going for the
any name and so for this also.
>
> I fully agree. We need to filter out the potentially offending names
'before' it comes to a vote. The board already does this, but obviously
none of us was aware of your concerns. Therefor we need our community to
help us. I appreciate your ticket as an attempt to do so.
>

So we can add one step here, we can write mails to Ambassdaor list or
fedora-trans list (can be better becuase of representing typical
diversity) - ask them to do this check, create one page etc or we can
think some better ways by discussing.

> > Similarly, prima facie, I feel that "Juicy Bacon" is also loaded with
very very negative connotation from Fedora 18 name selection list.
>
> I don't really know what connotation you have about "Juicy Bacon", but I
agree that it is a bad name. I am pretty sure we will not have something
with meat or even food again for F18.
>

Bacon is considered very much taboo for the people of Islamist beliefs and
Islamic countries of middle east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws#Pork
http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/why-muslims-dont-eat-bacon

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/muslim-kfc-employee-suspended-for-cursing-
at-customers-bacon-request/



>
> P.S.: I hope you are not offended by my reply. That is certainly not my
intention, I just want you to question your point of view, because from
mine, many of your reasons are hard to understand. Because of our
different cultural background we are too difficult to fully agree.
>

I am not at all offended. I already told you that this discussion is
purely a professional discussion and my only aim of this discussion is to
add any value in Fedora, if it can.


> As an international project we should be proud of our diversity. It is a
chance and a burden at the same time, Fedora will face this problem often
and we can do our best to respect others and their views.

--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/135#comment:3>
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Fwd: #135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
 

-------- Original Message --------



Subject:
Re: [Fedora Board issue tracker] #135: Connotations
Problems with Beefy Miracle


Date:
Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:13:09 -0000


From:
Fedora Board issue tracker
<board-trac@fedorahosted.org>


Reply-To:

board-private@lists.fedoraproject.org


CC:
board-private@lists.fedoraproject.org







#135: Connotations Problems with Beefy Miracle
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
Reporter: rajesh | Owner: somebody
Type: task | Status: new
Priority: major | Milestone:
Component: Fedora Project | Resolution:
Keywords: Connotations, Fedora 17, Beefy | Blocked By:
Miracle |
Blocking: |
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------

Comment (by pbrobinson):

Replying to [comment:3 rajesh]:
> Replying to [comment:1 cwickert]:
> > Preface: I am a vegetarian myself, but I am a supporter of Beefy
Miracle. Beefy Miracle has a 10 year history in Red Hat and Fedora. It
first appeared in Red Hat Linux 7.3 which was released in May 2002 and I
think it's great that Fedora 17 marks the 10 anniversary of both RHL 7.3
(one of the best releases ever) and Beefy Miracle.
>
> If just simply a name, I have no such objection as well. Personally I
and my wfie are pure veg but my son of 10 yrs eats everything...I have no
objection what he should eat. Personal is personal. Again, I am just
pointing it out to understand the process of connotation analysis and why
we should add a process like this in our name selection process to make
the naming more acceptable. And here I insist that the whole points I am
raising here is nothing to do with just my personal belief system.
>
> >
> > Replying to [ticket:135 rajesh]:
> > > Beefy Miracle is having a huge negative cultural, social, and
political connotation with respect to India and several religions of India
and world.
> >
> > Fedora is an international, non-religious and non-political project.
The name "Beefy Miracle" was chosen by our contributors and I am afraid
that if we let our international community vote, we will always upset some
regions, ideologies, regions or just people, even if it is certainly not
our intention.
> >
>
> I know and I am also proud to be a Fedora user and contributor. I also
share same views about Fedora. But since it is an international project so
it has more responsibility associated with its freedom. Voting is good but
number can be the only game changer then it is a chance that one majority
community belonging to some special culture can come in a position that
can make them behave like an autocrats very unitentinally. So some checks
are required. Just imagine if we know that the xyz name is the popular
choice, but at the same time the xyz is having potential to be a
connotationaly wrong choice, then we can tell the voter that the name
might be good but unintentinally we can hurt some group, so why not choose
some different one. I believe that our community is having great openness
and they respect the diversity issue.

While it's not ideal naming for a number of regions of our community the
time to highlight this as an issue is during the call for names for the
release by putting a note against the proposed name, or at the very least
when it comes up to be voted upon. Ultimately if there was so many people
against it I wonder why those concerned didn't step in and vote against it
to ensure it wouldn't be a problem, or in the very least register their
concern once it was announced. Looking at the results [1] there's not that
much difference between the top two so I doubt it would have taken too
much effort to rally the those concerned with it that have valid FAS
accounts to vote Liege up and Beefy Miracle down so this would never have
been an issue. The results were announced in early October, that was over
4 months ago, while it's unfortunate it's also a long time to wait to
escalate this issue.

[1] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/results/relnamef17

--
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