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-   -   Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-advisory-board/648028-connotation-analysis-fedora-project-codenames.html)

Robert 'Bob' Jensen 03-23-2012 01:14 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
----- "seth vidal" <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> I think we should drop the naming process altogether.
>
> For the following reasons:
>
> 1. the names do not serve any use
> 2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the process
> 3. no one remembers the names.
> 4. the names are potentially divisive.
>
> Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this
> entire
> issue.
>

+1

Many of us have been suggesting this for years. How can we make it reality?

-- Bob
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Jaroslav Reznik 03-23-2012 01:14 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
Hi,
there's ongoing discussion about the connotation analysis
of Fedora Project code names (so not only for Fedora itself
but other sub-projects too) started by Rajesh Ranjan (thanks
for ticket!).

It's a right time to get an input from community as there's
currently running Fedora 18 codename process [1].

As Rajesh posted to Fedora Board Track ticket, connotation is
"the emotional and imaginative association for a word, where
denotation is the strict dictionary meaning of a word."

Current process for selecting next code name is - community
members suggests the name, there's publicly accessible list for
everyone, then Board goes through the suggested names list to
remove the clear examples of names breaking the policy (yeah,
usually it's one search term in Google to find out the name has
to be ruled out, but that's Board deal ;-) and this list is
sent to Red Hat legal for proper legal review. Then the voting
is opened for everyone with valid FAS account and only names
that passed the process are allowed.

In Fedora we believe in freedom and openness, we don't have to
stick to the strict "corporate-like| rules but on the other hand we
should respect our community and we don't want to offend anyone
consciously.

Usually, we use the common sense to rule out offending stuff but
also we (and Board neither) don't have a degree in sociology, politics,
religion and our geek culture is also from the another universe :).

As I already pointed out - the process is open. Anybody can step
into in the early phase of naming selection and comment the
potential problems. And I believe the Board members will think
about the concerns raised (at least me ;-).

So personally I'd like to avoid any strict rule/policy as it could
hurt our community, we don't have a proper set of skills to do
the full analysis during the Board turn and I really hope with help
provided by community we can avoid the naming problems in the
future - just we need your, community, input.

Any thoughts?

PS: I like Christoph's comment in ticket - that as an international
project we should be proud of our diversity. It is a chance and
a burden at the same time, Fedora will face this problem often and
we can do our best to respect others and their views.

Jaroslav

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_18
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seth vidal 03-23-2012 01:24 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> there's ongoing discussion about the connotation analysis
> of Fedora Project code names (so not only for Fedora itself
> but other sub-projects too) started by Rajesh Ranjan (thanks
> for ticket!).
>
> It's a right time to get an input from community as there's
> currently running Fedora 18 codename process [1].
>
> As Rajesh posted to Fedora Board Track ticket, connotation is
> "the emotional and imaginative association for a word, where
> denotation is the strict dictionary meaning of a word."
>
> Current process for selecting next code name is - community
> members suggests the name, there's publicly accessible list for
> everyone, then Board goes through the suggested names list to
> remove the clear examples of names breaking the policy (yeah,
> usually it's one search term in Google to find out the name has
> to be ruled out, but that's Board deal ;-) and this list is
> sent to Red Hat legal for proper legal review. Then the voting
> is opened for everyone with valid FAS account and only names
> that passed the process are allowed.
>
> In Fedora we believe in freedom and openness, we don't have to
> stick to the strict "corporate-like| rules but on the other hand we
> should respect our community and we don't want to offend anyone
> consciously.
>
> Usually, we use the common sense to rule out offending stuff but
> also we (and Board neither) don't have a degree in sociology,
> politics, religion and our geek culture is also from the another
> universe :).
>
> As I already pointed out - the process is open. Anybody can step
> into in the early phase of naming selection and comment the
> potential problems. And I believe the Board members will think
> about the concerns raised (at least me ;-).
>
> So personally I'd like to avoid any strict rule/policy as it could
> hurt our community, we don't have a proper set of skills to do
> the full analysis during the Board turn and I really hope with help
> provided by community we can avoid the naming problems in the
> future - just we need your, community, input.
>
> Any thoughts?
>

I think we should drop the naming process altogether.

For the following reasons:

1. the names do not serve any use
2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the process
3. no one remembers the names.
4. the names are potentially divisive.

Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this entire
issue.

Thanks,
-sv
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David Nalley 03-23-2012 01:30 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:24 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
> Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> there's ongoing discussion about the connotation analysis
>> of Fedora Project code names (so not only for Fedora itself
>> but other sub-projects too) started by Rajesh Ranjan (thanks
>> for ticket!).
>>
>> It's a right time to get an input from community as there's
>> currently running Fedora 18 codename process [1].
>>
>> As Rajesh posted to Fedora Board Track ticket, connotation is
>> "the emotional and imaginative association for a word, where
>> denotation is the strict dictionary meaning of a word."
>>
>> Current process for selecting next code name is - community
>> members suggests the name, there's publicly accessible list for
>> everyone, then Board goes through the suggested names list to
>> remove the clear examples of names breaking the policy (yeah,
>> usually it's one search term in Google to find out the name has
>> to be ruled out, but that's Board deal ;-) and this list is
>> sent to Red Hat legal for proper legal review. Then the voting
>> is opened for everyone with valid FAS account and only names
>> that passed the process are allowed.
>>
>> In Fedora we believe in freedom and openness, we don't have to
>> stick to the strict "corporate-like| rules but on the other hand we
>> should respect our community and we don't want to offend anyone
>> consciously.
>>
>> Usually, we use the common sense to rule out offending stuff but
>> also we (and Board neither) don't *have a degree in sociology,
>> politics, religion and our geek culture is also from the another
>> universe :).
>>
>> As I already pointed out - the process is open. Anybody can step
>> into in the early phase of naming selection and comment the
>> potential problems. And I believe the Board members will think
>> about the concerns raised (at least me ;-).
>>
>> So personally I'd like to avoid any strict rule/policy as it could
>> hurt our community, we don't have a proper set of skills to do
>> the full analysis during the Board turn and I really hope with help
>> provided by community we *can avoid the naming problems in the
>> future - just we need your, community, input.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>
> I think we should drop the naming process altogether.
>
> For the following reasons:
>
> 1. the names do not serve any use
> 2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the process
> 3. no one remembers the names.
> 4. the names are potentially divisive.
>
> Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this entire
> issue.
>
> Thanks,
> -sv


To add one more justification there:

5. Now that we've had Zod and Beefy Miracle - is there really any
point continuing? (yes I know, Bacon, but that's very unlikely to be
approved)

:)
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Jaroslav Reznik 03-23-2012 02:28 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
----- Original Message -----
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:24 AM, seth vidal
> <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > I think we should drop the naming process altogether.
> >
> > For the following reasons:
> >
> > 1. the names do not serve any use
> > 2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the
> > process
> > 3. no one remembers the names.
> > 4. the names are potentially divisive.
> >
> > Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this
> > entire
> > issue.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -sv
>
>
> To add one more justification there:
>
> 5. Now that we've had Zod and Beefy Miracle - is there really any
> point continuing? (yes I know, Bacon, but that's very unlikely to be
> approved)

Eyjafjallajökull is good candidate for the series restart!

For Fedora naming - when I remember my first vote for the name -
for me personally it was more like "wow, I'm part of Fedora,
I can vote for name!" but as it was said - not many people use
it for voting or even not influencing it make the name clean...

What will be the direct consequences? Design? I'm not sure we're
fond of making artwork by name anymore, it's nice, some people
still care but it's time consuming etc. (my feeling). For packaging
- the name can be just replaced by generic fedora-something...
Not many people using it, so it can vanish. But as I said, I
still feel it as a part of "us" ;-)

But it's not only about the name for Fedora release, also for
the other projects coming from Fedora. We have a few projects,
that makes feelings even in the US...

Jaroslav

> :)
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> advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Robyn Bergeron 03-23-2012 02:33 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On 03/23/2012 07:24 AM, seth vidal wrote:

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
Jaroslav Reznik<jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:


Hi,
there's ongoing discussion about the connotation analysis
of Fedora Project code names (so not only for Fedora itself
but other sub-projects too) started by Rajesh Ranjan (thanks
for ticket!).

It's a right time to get an input from community as there's
currently running Fedora 18 codename process [1].

As Rajesh posted to Fedora Board Track ticket, connotation is
"the emotional and imaginative association for a word, where
denotation is the strict dictionary meaning of a word."

Current process for selecting next code name is - community
members suggests the name, there's publicly accessible list for
everyone, then Board goes through the suggested names list to
remove the clear examples of names breaking the policy (yeah,
usually it's one search term in Google to find out the name has
to be ruled out, but that's Board deal ;-) and this list is
sent to Red Hat legal for proper legal review. Then the voting
is opened for everyone with valid FAS account and only names
that passed the process are allowed.

In Fedora we believe in freedom and openness, we don't have to
stick to the strict "corporate-like| rules but on the other hand we
should respect our community and we don't want to offend anyone
consciously.

Usually, we use the common sense to rule out offending stuff but
also we (and Board neither) don't have a degree in sociology,
politics, religion and our geek culture is also from the another
universe :).

As I already pointed out - the process is open. Anybody can step
into in the early phase of naming selection and comment the
potential problems. And I believe the Board members will think
about the concerns raised (at least me ;-).

So personally I'd like to avoid any strict rule/policy as it could
hurt our community, we don't have a proper set of skills to do
the full analysis during the Board turn and I really hope with help
provided by community we can avoid the naming problems in the
future - just we need your, community, input.

Any thoughts?


I think we should drop the naming process altogether.

For the following reasons:

1. the names do not serve any use
I disagree; the theming for our wallpaper, as well as a moderate amount
(though not always infused with ridiculous amounts of puns) of marketing
material, take inspiration from the release name.

2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the process
It's a waste of time if nobody sees benefit in having a name. See above
point.

3. no one remembers the names.
To be fair, people only remember the numbers because... well... we
learned how to count when we were young, in theory. :) But do people
look back and better remember the release where we did packagekit,
upstart, and firefox 3 as... "Oh yes, Fedora 9!" ... either? Probably not.

4. the names are potentially divisive.
I don't think we should set the precedent of dodging the ball on things
because they are potentially divisive. See: Core vs. extras, gnome 3,
systemd, THIS VERY EMAIL THREAD, :)


(Plz, no snarky comments on how much better off we'd be if only we had
dodged the ball on $X. :D)

Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this entire
issue.

Thanks,
-sv
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Nicu Buculei 03-23-2012 02:36 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On 03/23/2012 05:28 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:


What will be the direct consequences? Design? I'm not sure we're
fond of making artwork by name anymore, it's nice, some people
still care but it's time consuming etc. (my feeling). For packaging
- the name can be just replaced by generic fedora-something...
Not many people using it, so it can vanish. But as I said, I
still feel it as a part of "us" ;-)


I see the name used a lot *outside* of the distro, almost all reviews
are using it because is adding a more personal touch to the cold release
number (that and probably because Ubuntu used them with named releases).


--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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inode0 03-23-2012 02:43 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
> But it's not only about the name for Fedora release, also for
> the other projects coming from Fedora. We have a few projects,
> that makes feelings even in the US...

For those of us who can't read the ticket you refer to can you give us
some examples of names we have used that are considered problematic
and why?

In the context of release naming since it is public it isn't hard for
anyone offended by something to comment before it is adopted if they
notice it but in other contexts this may not be possible. What other
sorts of names used within Fedora are you concerned about?

John
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Clint Savage 03-23-2012 02:47 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
>
> I think we should drop the naming process altogether.
>
> For the following reasons:
>
> 1. the names do not serve any use
> 2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the process
> 3. no one remembers the names.
> 4. the names are potentially divisive.
>
> Let's do away with naming releases altogether and side step this entire
> issue.
>
> Thanks,
> -sv

After reading the last two emails, I think it is a good idea to
analyze why we have code names at all. As I understand it, the code
name came from Red Hat Linux, long before the Fedora Project existed.
I am quite fond of the codename for Red Hat Linux 5.2 (Apollo) as it
was my first real Linux distribution. I also enjoyed many others along
the way, including Leonidas, Verne and the all-debated Beefy Miracle.

Seth as 4 reasons listed above that are valid from his point of view
as to why we should not keep the code names up. I have heard each of
those points before and am sure we will here his argument again, that
we should just drop the naming process altogether. My opinion on the
issue is completely the opposite.

I think the naming process provides a purpose (serves at least one
use) as it keeps up tradition. Another purpose of the code name is
Marketing. Consider what has come out of 'Beefy Miracle'. I recall
suggestions of a hot dog roast at SouthEast Linuxfest last year and
again this year. That helps people remember Fedora and its community.

The naming process could be streamlined, I agree. I don't know that
they are a waste of time and effort. Is it difficult to manage? I see
it as a wiki page, a review process by the board and legal and voting.
We've been doing it for years, and yet, the process keeps moving
forward, people still want it and participate. Maybe the problem is
just a matter of streamlining.

As I pointed out above, I remember the names. Not all of them, that's
true, but a good amount. I don't think the names are necessarily
important to be remembered so much as it provides a useful tool for
reminding others of the Fedora brand.

The only one I somewhat agree with is the divisiveness of some of the
names. Maybe it's just me, but the ones that are likely to offend
really should be removed pretty quickly by the board. I have not yet
been offended by any of the codenames, even though some have been odd.

Anyway, to my point. I think the value of the codenames is more than
the worth the work it takes to have the process each release. I know
many others who feel the same way and I don't think suggesting we
remove the process altogether will result in the code names going
away.

Clint
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seth vidal 03-23-2012 02:56 PM

Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames
 
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:33:00 -0700
Robyn Bergeron <rbergero@redhat.com> wrote:

> >>
> > I think we should drop the naming process altogether.
> >
> > For the following reasons:
> >
> > 1. the names do not serve any use
> I disagree; the theming for our wallpaper, as well as a moderate
> amount (though not always infused with ridiculous amounts of puns) of
> marketing material, take inspiration from the release name.

Do they? I guess I never formed a connection between the images and the
names.


> > 2. the names are a waste of time and effort to administer the
> > process
> It's a waste of time if nobody sees benefit in having a name. See
> above point.

So the only advantage out of the naming mechanism is helping with
artwork? Do we know if the art/design team cares?

> > 3. no one remembers the names.
> To be fair, people only remember the numbers because... well... we
> learned how to count when we were young, in theory. :) But do people
> look back and better remember the release where we did packagekit,
> upstart, and firefox 3 as... "Oh yes, Fedora 9!" ... either? Probably
> not.

Except you can know that Fedora 9 was N years ago - roughly based on
the release cycle.

I cannot begin to tell you about Yarrow, though :)

> > 4. the names are potentially divisive.
> I don't think we should set the precedent of dodging the ball on
> things because they are potentially divisive. See: Core vs. extras,
> gnome 3, systemd, THIS VERY EMAIL THREAD, :)
>

It's more of an evolutionary process. We shake off the parts we no
longer need and come out better for it. We do it all the time in the
distro itself. We get rid of things we aren't using, remove old code,
disused functionality, etc.

I know this seems like a radical thing but I really don't think it is.
I stopped participating or caring in the names a long time ago and from
asking around to some of my peers, I'm not alone.

However, and let me be very clear, it is not a significant enough thing
for me to expend much time arguing about. :) This will be my last email
on the subject.

-sv


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