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Old 03-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Robyn Bergeron
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On 03/27/2012 01:36 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:

On 03/27/2012 09:58 AM, "Jóhann B. Guđmundsson" wrote:

On 03/27/2012 12:18 AM, Robyn Bergeron wrote:

On 03/26/2012 04:46 PM, "Jóhann B. Guđmundsson" wrote:


Has it been looked into how many ( % ) of active contributors have
voted in the release naming process each given cycle?

Not necessarily in %, but the total number of votes cast is reported
with each set of election results.


I would think that before deciding anything you will have to know how
many community members actually bother/care enough to vote.


Low voter participation is not necessarily an indicator people find
the feature unuseful or wanting it abolished. For example if voter
participation is equally low for Board or FESCo membership, do we
abolish the Board or FESCo?
I agree; we've decided release names, and held elections, for a long
time, without instituting the need to meet a specific threshold to
determine if we have enough votes or representation to make the vote
valid, statistically significant, or otherwise.


The only way to have some valid data points is, as was already
proposed, put "drop release names" as an entry for the next vote. I
fell it will be a fun vote




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Old 03-27-2012, 01:52 PM
Robyn Bergeron
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On 03/26/2012 12:17 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 3:05 PM, mario juliano grande balletta
<mario.balletta@gmail.com> wrote:

No one owns the planets, stars, galaxies, etc. Using names from
nature could offer an endless supply of possibilities and also avoids
cultural issues, unless there are any Raelians in the community
(kidding :-).

Imagine Fedora 18 ( Orion ) or Fedora 18 ( Wombat ) or Fedora 18 ( Everest )

see the idea?

It's quite recognized that Mars is the God of War. Are you suggesting
Fedora should use a release name that promotes war? Pluto is the God of
the Underworld. Names of deities can be offensive to atheists.

See the idea? People can get offended by anything.

josh
__________
I'm going to attempt to take us from endless commentary into concrete
proposal mode. Of course, I'll have to add my minor bit of commentary at
some point, but....


I mostly wish that this discussion had come up a long time ago - maybe,
say, while voting for the specific name that has sparked this
discussion, but at the bare minimum, prior to us actually kicking off
the release name process. I'm not a fan of disenfranchising folks who
have submitted names, nor of doing the same to folks who have made the
effort to inform folks that their names aren't meeting "is-a"
requirements, doing basic name collision searches, etc. Thus, I'm not a
fan of yanking release names right now before voting.


I'm also of the opinion that a lot of people happen to have *fun*
participating in the naming process, and I also think it's an excellent
opportunity to show just one more way that Fedora differentiates itself
-- anyone can propose a name. Perhaps it's something we could
capitalize on a bit more in terms of being a first step for someone
discovering what they could actually accomplish as part of our
community. But anyway......


I propose:

* Continue with naming process as previously detailed, but perhaps with
a lengthier voting period and/or a greater effort to raise awareness of
this particular election.

* Allow "No Name" to be an option for the F18 cycle.
* Have a separate vote (I have no idea if this can be done within the
same voting "page" or if we'd need to have two separate elections at the
same time) for:


** Keep release names
** Abolish release names after F18.

We could, theoretically, just add "No Name, F18 and beyond" in the list
with all other release names, in one vote. My hesitation here is how
well this jives with the voting methodology; it's entirely possible that
we could wind up with 30% of votes going to "No name" and 70% of votes
being split into fractions of less than 30% amongst multiple release
names, which I don't think very accurately represents "I like the
release naming process" vs. "I dislike it, please discontinue." I could
be wrong here, I'm not a range voting expert or a statistician.


With regards to connotation analysis, and I *will* inject my bit of
commentary here:


I'm a believer in the Fedora Project's contributors' abilities to Do the
Right Thing. What I'm not a fan of is the initials FP transitioning
from meaning "Fedora Project" to "Fun Police." We have an enormous,
diverse, worldwide community, with representation from all corners of
beliefs, values, political ideologies, and otherwise, and everyone has a
voice. I believe that 99.999% of the time, if or when an egregiously
offensive *anything* comes up, people speak up. We've seen this in the
past with a small handful of issues, and the community has always taken
the steps to assess and sometimes correct those issues, case-by-case,
through discussion and reasonable judgement. As Josh stated above,
people can get offended by *anything*, and the last place I think we
want to be as a project is a spot where we wind up subjecting every
corner of the project to scrutiny levels that, in the end, can be
incredibly subjective, and more importantly, block getting Things Done
in any sort of timely manner. I don't want to lose the Having Fun,
Getting Things Done aspect of participation that we enjoy here.


In short: I trust Us, the community of contributors. Frankly, not only
do I think that a small handful of people dedicated to "connotation
analysis" is less likely to catch those issues than, say, the whole of
the community, I think that it could actually be detrimental in that
folks may not speak up, assuming that the review group will catch
issues, or that people become disenfranchised from speaking up because
they are not part of "the group."


That said, I don't think there is a problem with, say, posting the list
of names that the Board is sending to legal for review to the
translations list *at the same time it goes to legal* as a best-effort
sanity check to ensure that the word "Banana" isn't actually the name of
a dictator who lead a genocide in Azeroth. And in doing so, *trusting*
that it doesn't become a free-for-all of ridiculous associations claimed
to be offensive, such as "Bananas are yellow, and I hate yellow," or
"Some people are allergic to bananas," "I broke my leg once slipping on
a banana peel," "The increasing size of bananas is considered by some to
be the effect of evolution, and evolution is not accepted by all
beliefs," "Monkeys love bananas and they will be offended," or any other
similar, ahem, monkey business.


And (tongue-in-cheek), God help us if the International Arithmophobia
Association comes along.


-robyn
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:33 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 06:52:54 -0700,
Robyn Bergeron <rbergero@redhat.com> wrote:


We could, theoretically, just add "No Name, F18 and beyond" in the
list with all other release names, in one vote. My hesitation here is
how well this jives with the voting methodology; it's entirely
possible that we could wind up with 30% of votes going to "No name"
and 70% of votes being split into fractions of less than 30% amongst
multiple release names, which I don't think very accurately
represents "I like the release naming process" vs. "I dislike it,
please discontinue." I could be wrong here, I'm not a range voting
expert or a statistician.


That's not the way voting works. It isn't a first past the post voting
scheme. I would expact that people who vote for any name will be very
likely to rate "no name" very low and so even if a lot of people pick
"no name" first, it is unlikely to beat out many names and unless near
50% of the voters make it their first option.

On another note, if you wanted to increase the interest in the elections,
you might consider awarding swag to people who come up with the names
used for the exlection, and maybe bonus swag for the person who came up
with the winning name.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:37 PM
inode0
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Robyn Bergeron <rbergero@redhat.com> wrote:
> I propose:
>
> * Continue with naming process as previously detailed, but perhaps with a
> lengthier voting period and/or a greater effort to raise awareness of this
> particular election.

Having more time to do the vetting seems like a good idea. With some
encouragement to the community perhaps it can help more with vetting
and a longer period for vetting will perhaps lessen the burden on the
Board to need to do this right this minute.

> * Allow "No Name" to be an option for the F18 cycle.

I'm always against changing things up after they have begun and really
this mostly seems to just be a negative sentiment to express which I'd
rather not see. People are free to ignore this entire process and most
people do just that now.

If someone wants "No Name" on the ballot I suggest they go nominate it fast.

> * Have a separate vote (I have no idea if this can be done within the same
> voting "page" or if we'd need to have two separate elections at the same
> time) for:
>
> ** Keep release names
> ** Abolish release names after F18.

This vote in my mind largely would be just a choice between "I want to
continue having my fun choosing names" vs. "Those people are silly and
let's stop their fun now." Most of the potential voters here really do
not have a horse in this race. Do we really want to start issue
voting? I have other issues I'd sure rather vote on but voting has
never been our solution to such things.

We have several hundred people who enjoy this enough to participate in
it. While I might think the entire process is silly there is no reason
at all I should tell them that or ruin their fun. So who else is
actually doing work here and is impacted by the process. As I see it
we have

* Red Hat Legal - they can kill this any time by saying they don't
want to do it any more.
* Fedora Project Board - they probably do the most work, organizing it
and vetting names. And if they don't want to continue enabling the
community fun that is the naming process then I'd suggest (a) work
with the community to develop a different vetting process that is
effective and less burden on the board or (b) deal with it as previous
Boards have done to bring joy to those who find this fun or (c) belly
up to it and just decide we aren't doing this any more without hiding
behind votes that have questionable meaning.
* Fedora Infrastructure - can running the voting application for this
be that large a burden?
* Fedora Marketing/Design - they can choose to frame their work around
the name selected or not.

In case I wasn't clear, I think voting to kill the release names is a
bad idea. :-)

John
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:38 PM
Josh Boyer
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:
> On another note, if you wanted to increase the interest in the elections,
> you might consider awarding swag to people who come up with the names
> used for the exlection, and maybe bonus swag for the person who came up
> with the winning name.

That doesn't really encourage people to vote. It encourages them to
submit as many names as possible, which increases the work that other
people need to do to verify them.

josh
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:11 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 06:52 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> We could, theoretically, just add "No Name, F18 and beyond" in the list
> with all other release names, in one vote.

The issue with this approach is that it leaves the folks who like having
names but dislike the current 'is a' process without a say.

So why not continue F18's process as planned since it was already
started, as you suggested? Then have a separate vote after that one,
where as a community we can decide either no release name or select a
scheme for the release names to follow.

Here's a start at some suggestions for naming schemes, anybody feel free
to add:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Suggestions_for_Fedora_Codename_Theme

~m

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Old 03-27-2012, 03:38 PM
Pam Chestek
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

Máirín Duffy wrote:

On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 06:52 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:

We could, theoretically, just add "No Name, F18 and beyond" in the list
with all other release names, in one vote.


The issue with this approach is that it leaves the folks who like having
names but dislike the current 'is a' process without a say.

So why not continue F18's process as planned since it was already
started, as you suggested? Then have a separate vote after that one,
where as a community we can decide either no release name or select a
scheme for the release names to follow.

Here's a start at some suggestions for naming schemes, anybody feel free
to add:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Suggestions_for_Fedora_Codename_Theme

~m

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I'll add one asterisk to this approach.* Sometimes you get into ratholes
on trademark clearance, where a concept is so commonly used that all
the words in the concept have been used as trademarks and you can't
clear anything.* Our current system avoids the problem because it
naturally provides a transition to a different set of concepts to get
out of ratholes.* Looking at the list, my gut tells me that
constellations, stars, etc. will be ratholes, as well as subatomic
particles and Shakespeare names.* I would also avoid any category with
last names (innovators, names in computer history and composers), since
then we also have to worry about the right of publicity when clearing
names. And I have to give more thought to book titles --





Just some food for thought if we go down the path of naming based on a
theme, so we can be sure to pick a fertile, flexible theme rather than
one that will offer nothing but frustration. We might want to consider
running some test names in a proposed theme to see what kind of results
we get.





Pam



Pamela Chestek

Sr. IP Attorney

Red Hat, Inc.



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Old 03-27-2012, 03:43 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 11:38 -0400, Pam Chestek wrote:
> Looking at the list, my gut tells me that constellations, stars, etc.
> will be ratholes, as well as subatomic particles and Shakespeare
> names. I would also avoid any category with last names (innovators,
> names in computer history and composers), since then we also have to
> worry about the right of publicity when clearing names. And I have to
> give more thought to book titles --

Okay, thanks for giving them a look-over! I can mark the list
appropriately and move those into a 'potential issues' category well
below the list.

> Just some food for thought if we go down the path of naming based on a
> theme, so we can be sure to pick a fertile, flexible theme rather than
> one that will offer nothing but frustration. We might want to consider
> running some test names in a proposed theme to see what kind of
> results we get.

One that I thought of after initially posting the wiki page: coffee shop
drinks? So however you order your tea or coffee... it would involve a
lot of modifiers and there are a lot of potential combos, no? Would that
ever be a problem? E.g.,

- triple soy latte
- skinny caramel macchiato
- hammerhead with cream
- iced french roast

~m

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Old 03-27-2012, 03:44 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:11:22 -0400,
Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


Here's a start at some suggestions for naming schemes, anybody feel free
to add:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Suggestions_for_Fedora_Codename_Theme


I am not sure we'd even want to limit it to one of these categories.

The 'is a' process has give us a lot of names that I don't think were
very good. (Though I did like Verne and what the design team did for the
art work, and I thought Beefy miracle pretty much just circumvented
the 'is a' process.)

I think having names that inspire cool art work, are memorable and have a
positive connotation are good for Fedora. It would also be nice to have
a fun way to choose them that would make contributors feel more vested
in the project. I don't think the 'is a' process has resulted in consistant
good pools of names.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:50 PM
Richard Fontana
 
Default Connotation analysis for Fedora Project codenames

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:38:22AM -0400, Pam Chestek wrote:
> I would also avoid any category
> with last names (innovators, names in computer history and composers), since
> then we also have to worry about the right of publicity when clearing names.

As an entirely separate matter, lack of constant vigilance will
undoubtedly lead to a preponderance of names of dead white males if
you use such categories as names in computer history (despite the
importance of, say, Lovelace and Hopper) and composers (dominated by
white men during the entirety of the history of Western art
music). Given the pervasive problems of sexism in computing (including
free software/open source) that would, I think, be potentially
problematic.

- RF

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