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Old 02-22-2012, 09:44 PM
David Nalley
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

First, my apologies for cross-posting.

Spot, Pam, et al:

At today's Board meeting[0] there was some significant backlash to the
proposed TM guidelines, specifically the non-software goods section.

The principal issue the Board would like to understand is:

What is the impact of not running requests for trademark approval for
non-software goods through the yet to be created trac instance (as is
currently the case).

e.g. is there a risk to the trademarks from the lack of documentation
of quantity, events distributed at, etc, or does this merely simplify
record keeping/keep someone from looking at the various budget
pages/meeting logs/mailing lists where these things are currently
discussed/record.

Additionally, a number of folks present at the Board meeting who are
involved in the acquisition and distribution of Fedora swag were
concerned with the additional overhead, and for clarification offered
up the following workflow that already happens:

Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated or
approved in the past) and are then ordered. The bill is subsequently
paid by RHT (involving management approval of expense reports,
auditing by finance etc).

This presents the additional questions of:

* Does RHT ultimately paying (and thus at least tacitly, if not
explicitly approving of the usage) for the goods not make this TM
usage on the part of RHT and thus not needing approval?
* Is it permissible for the Board to delegate either to the various
groups within Fedora that produce swag, or perhaps to the regional
community RHT credit card holders, the ability to approve TM usage
within a well defined swag/non-software goods category.
* Despite the non-software goods section in the TM guidelines - swag
has been produced without Board approval for at least the past 4 years
- has there been a delegation of this authority already, or was
perhaps the understanding that RHT footing the bill indicated RHT
approval?

[0] http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-02-22/fedora_board.2012-02-22-18.29.log.html
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:36 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
> FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
> proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated or
> approved in the past) and are then ordered

FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not gone
through design team approval and print-ready artwork has not been
proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB instead
of correct CMYK colorspace) and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due to
not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most part,
logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
that could have been prevented.

~m

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Old 02-23-2012, 01:02 AM
David Nalley
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

2012/2/22 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
>> Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
>> FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
>> proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated or
>> approved in the past) and are then ordered
>
> FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not gone
> through design team approval and print-ready artwork has not been
> proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB instead
> of correct CMYK colorspace) and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due to
> not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most part,
> logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
> team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
> that could have been prevented.

That is true - I can think of a number of instances where that has
been the case, though most of the examples I can think of seem to be a
bit distant, but I've also been far more distant from the preparation
of swag as well.

--David
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:05 AM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

----- Original Message -----
> On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> > Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
> > FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
> > proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated
> > or
> > approved in the past) and are then ordered
>
> FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not
> gone
> through design team approval and print-ready artwork has not been
> proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB
> instead
> of correct CMYK colorspace) and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due
> to
> not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most
> part,
> logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
> team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
> that could have been prevented.

The question is more about producing already approved/designed (by Design
team) designs, mostly already produced before as if I understand the
policy draft correctly - the approval is needed for *every* new order.

I'm not questioning the need to go for approval from you design ninjas
for a new designs. Like from Marketing Collateral [1] wiki. Even I think
some designs there are already obsolete or does not match the current
TM policy.

It would probably makes sense to have authorized Marketing stuff with
up-to-date artwork, following all logo/design guidelines/policies and
say that's already pre-approved design that could be used for SWAG.
And just notify Legal or whoever is interested (I think even for us
it makes some sense to have statistics) with the information about
of SWAG produced/distributed.

Jaroslav

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_collateral

> ~m
>
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:41 AM
Peter Robinson
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>> On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
>> > Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
>> > FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
>> > proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated
>> > or
>> > approved in the past) and are then ordered
>>
>> FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not
>> gone
>> through design team approval and print-ready artwork has not been
>> proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB
>> instead
>> of correct CMYK colorspace) and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due
>> to
>> not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most
>> part,
>> logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
>> team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
>> that could have been prevented.
>
> The question is more about producing already approved/designed (by Design
> team) designs, mostly already produced before as if I understand the
> policy draft correctly - the approval is needed for *every* new order.

My understanding of the requirements for every order from last weeks
call is the quantity and locations need to be tracked to prove active
and continued usage of the trademark by RHT which is part of the
requirements for keeping the trademark.

Peter
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 19:36 -0500 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> > Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
> > FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
> > proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated or
> > approved in the past) and are then ordered
>
> FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not gone
> through design team approval

Such as? I doubt that anybody but the design team has produced designs
for our swag and I wonder if something that was produced by the design
team needs an explicit approval from the very same team.

> and print-ready artwork has not been
> proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB instead
> of correct CMYK colorspace)

Incorrect colors are a problem indeed. We are facing it nearly every we
produce something, because most companies acceppt neither RGB nor CMYK
but want Pantone. Is there anything we can do about this?

> and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due to
> not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most part,
> logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
> team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
> that could have been prevented.

Again, I am not aware of any swag design that did not come from the
design team. Maybe some new team members need better knowledge of the
guidelines or we need a more formal approval process there?

Kind regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-23-2012, 01:08 PM
inode0
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 19:36 -0500 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
>> On Wed, 2012-02-22 at 17:44 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
>> > Need for swag is discussed and agreed to by regional groups such as
>> > FAmNA, EMEA Ambassadors, in public. Designs either generated or
>> > proofed by Fedora Design (or are designs that have been generated or
>> > approved in the past) and are then ordered
>>
>> FWIW there has been more than a trivial amount of swag that has not gone
>> through design team approval
>
> Such as? I doubt that anybody but the design team has produced designs
> for our swag and I wonder if something that was produced by the design
> team needs an explicit approval from the very same team.

Please let's not enumerate mistakes that have been made. The fact is
that mistakes have been made by both community produced and by Red Hat
produced merchandise. Sometimes the error is our fault, sometimes it
is the fault of the vendor. In every case where a mistake has been
made we can learn to do our work better. But this surely is not the
point of the proposed change to the guidelines so I think it is a
digression, although it is important for us to all do better.

>> and print-ready artwork has not been
>> proofed with the design team, resulting in incorrect colors (RGB instead
>> of correct CMYK colorspace)
>
> Incorrect colors are a problem indeed. We are facing it nearly every we
> produce something, because most companies acceppt neither RGB nor CMYK
> but want Pantone. Is there anything we can do about this?
>
>> and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due to
>> not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most part,
>> logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
>> team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
>> that could have been prevented.
>
> Again, I am not aware of any swag design that did not come from the
> design team. Maybe some new team members need better knowledge of the
> guidelines or we need a more formal approval process there?

I am and I don't consider that a problem. The policy is that
merchandise and any other use of the trademarks follow the usage
guidelines. That does not require working with the design team to
accomplish although that is often a good practice to follow, but it
should not be a policy in my opinion.

Here is a recent example of a new contributor trying to produce a new
piece of promotional merchandise for the project in the early stages
and the advice I gave him.

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2012-February/018993.html

I had two suggestions for his frisbee idea. Get quotes and FAmNA will
decided whether to proceed by approving funding and if that happens
then I suggested having the design used checked by the design team to
help us be confident it was compliant with the usage guidelines.

The point though is that we comply with the usage guidelines, not that
we check with the design team who are mostly other community members
and who mostly aren't legal authorities. If tomorrow Mo proposed this
and were no longer a member of the design team I think it would be a
waste of time to tell her to go get her artwork approved by the design
team and I would not have asked her to do that because I already have
great confidence she knows what she is doing.

I have issues with just about every point in the new policy draft
related to ambassador produced promotional merchandise but I am eager
to hear the legal reasoning behind them. I can make points now
regarding workflow and the likelihood of our continued production of
materials under the new guidelines (which I have great concerns about)
but mostly I think I should wait to hear more first.

I will say now that I think it is ridiculous that I be required to ask
the Board permission to make a frisbee. I, along with other
contributors, have been making these decisions for years. Had the
proposed item been something inappropriate (which has never happened
because ambassadors are very keen to represent Fedora in a positive
way) I would have explained that it was inappropriate and why and we
would not have approved funding so that would have been the end of it.
From a workflow and end result perspective needing to get permission
for a particular item from the Board wastes our time and in my opinion
accomplishes nothing (although it may have some legal thing that it
accomplishes that I can't speak to).

John
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:36 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On 02/23/2012 08:08 AM, inode0 wrote:

I have issues with just about every point in the new policy draft
related to ambassador produced promotional merchandise but I am eager
to hear the legal reasoning behind them.


You probably ought to ask on -legal list if you're genuinely interested
in the legal justifications and requirements.


IANAL but as I understand it, to protect the trademark, documented
oversight on all uses of the mark is required.


I'm sure we can come up with policies and procedures to ensure that
happens while at the same time make it as simple and efficient as
possible. For example, Paul kindly replied already

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-February/011370.html
that should address at least some of the concerns you raised.

-- rex
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:34 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 13:52 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Such as? I doubt that anybody but the design team has produced designs
> for our swag and I wonder if something that was produced by the design
> team needs an explicit approval from the very same team.

As an example, there are very old, very outdated freedom / infinity /
voice poster designs that I *still* see in event photos, replete with
embarrassingly incorrect fonts.

There have been various T-shirts and posters produced that I never saw
discussed on the design-team list. The FUDcon Milan event collateral
comes to mind here.

There have been keychains and stickers produced that I never saw
discussed on the design team list or brought up to the design team that,
for instance, have the blue colors of the Fedora logo reversed.

Even if someone on the design team does a mock up for you, that does not
mean it is ready to be sent to a printer and it will turn out right.
(case in point, the I |f) Fedora shirts. I did a mockup for them.
Someone - I haven't the faintest idea who - took the mockup and had it
printed. Without consulting design team or flattening the fonts to
paths. The shirts could have looked really cool but instead they have
entirely the wrong font and look a bit off.

Someone on the design team who knows what they are doing needs to look
at or produce print-ready artwork before it is sent to the printers to
make sure these kinds of mistakes happen. Before spending X amount of $
where X is pretty large, double-check with someone on the design team to
make sure the design is still current. Mockups, even if they are in SVG
(especially if they are in SVG, because they cannot be in CMYK if they
are SVG) are not print-ready.

> Incorrect colors are a problem indeed. We are facing it nearly every we
> produce something, because most companies accept neither RGB nor CMYK
> but want Pantone. Is there anything we can do about this?

I don't know which printers you are talking to who claim they can only
accept Pantone spot colors, but if a printer offers Pantone spot colors,
they will most certainly be able to cope with CMYK. Pantone is
expensive, and is only possible with designs that have a minimum number
of colors (we're talking, 1-5 colors) where you explicitly specify
Pantone ink numbers per area of color. The only designs we would ever
produce with Pantone spot colors (which we'd better prefer not to use
seeing how proprietary Pantone is) are for designs that have two colors:
Fedora Blue & Fedora Dark Blue. The Pantone numbers for these colors are
in the logo usage guidelines and you can give the color numbers to the
printers verbally and they should be able to handle them.

Sometimes a design is produced in CMYK, btw, and something about it is
modified - maybe the copyright year? Maybe a URL? Maybe the version
number? But when it is saved out, it isn't saved as CMYK. So a
previously color-correct and approved design is switched over to RGB.
This has happened multiple times with our media art.

> > and the wrong usage of fonts (usually due to
> > not flattening fonts to paths) in the final product. For the most part,
> > logo manipulations do go through either the logo queue or the Design
> > team, but I have been disappointed in the past by designs with errors
> > that could have been prevented.
>
> Again, I am not aware of any swag design that did not come from the
> design team. Maybe some new team members need better knowledge of the
> guidelines or we need a more formal approval process there?

Maybe we need a more formal approval process. But there are definitely
items getting produced that haven't been brought up to the design team
at all so it is a problem.

I mean, in the end, maybe it's not a big deal, but I feel very, very
badly about the amount of money spent on purple Fedora things and things
where the font is so obviously wrong - but as a designer I'm likely a
lot more sensitive to these things than your average bear. That being
said, I do think Fedora is worth getting these things right and they do
add up over time to create an unnecessary unpolished / sloppy
impression.

I would be happy to put together a guide of 'things to check for before
sending a design to printing' for anybody who is interested, maybe do a
quick screencast or something? Does that sound helpful? Would people
actually be willing to take a look and follow the pointers? Are there
any specific questions you have about how print stuff works or why such
and such accident happened and how to prevent it that I can make sure to
cover?

~m

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Old 02-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Board question regarding non-software goods.

On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 08:08 -0600, inode0 wrote:
> The point though is that we comply with the usage guidelines, not that
> we check with the design team who are mostly other community members
> and who mostly aren't legal authorities. If tomorrow Mo proposed this
> and were no longer a member of the design team I think it would be a
> waste of time to tell her to go get her artwork approved by the design
> team and I would not have asked her to do that because I already have
> great confidence she knows what she is doing.

Okay, so I just sent off a separate reply to Christoph's message before
seeing this one (sorry) but I did want to clarify when I say someone
should send such-and-such to the design team for approval, I don't mean
that so much as to say you should go run over there and get some rubber
stamp for the sake of getting a rubber stamp.

I mean more you should have someone who understands the printing process
and knows what to check for looking it over to avoid easily-prevented
mistakes. Someone who has been working with the Fedora logo artwork long
enough to be able to spot incorrect colors and fonts from a mile away.
While such a person doesn't have to be on the Fedora design team, I
don't actually know anybody who has this understanding of the Fedora
logo who isn't on the Fedora design team or at least who doesn't watch
the team mailing list.

Those sorts of things are going to be extremely difficult for someone
new to the project to check for / understand on their own.

Things to look for:

- Is the correct font being used? (Cantarell for body text, Comfortaa
for headlines / slugs)

- Are all fonts converted to paths or otherwise embedded?

- Is the colorspace set to CMYK?

- Are the Fedora logo colors reflecting the correct values? The four
foundations' / FUDcon colors?

- Has the logo been modified in any way that isn't explicitly approved?
Things to look for here include keylines and borders (not allowed),
mixing with other logos (not allowed), spacing issues (bad), has the
logo been scaled so the 'TM' marks are unreadable (bad)?

- Is the file format correct and to the printer's specifications? If
applicable, are appropriate bleeds and crop marks set in the file?

With the frisbee design, one glance at the mockup and I can see the
colors used are not correct.

~m

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