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Old 11-19-2007, 03:03 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Legal Update

Christopher Aillon wrote:


Read spot's mail again. You can't give a reason. You can say general
things such as "There's some other software that we don't ship which is
available here". You can't say "There's some other software that we
don't ship because of .... which is available here". Including it in a
very specific context like this seems to fall more into the latter, not
the former, and does not appear to be allowed.


What I understood is that is that we can't explicitly say in words the
reason behind why we don't include certain software. I don't consider
the context in the workflow that I described as not allowed. Spot, let
me know what you think. If we need to get legal confirmation on the
specific workflow as I suggested, let's get that done.


Rahul

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Old 11-19-2007, 03:23 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Legal Update

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:33:20 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> What I understood is that is that we can't explicitly say in words
> the reason behind why we don't include certain software. I don't
> consider the context in the workflow that I described as not allowed.
> Spot, let me know what you think. If we need to get legal
> confirmation on the specific workflow as I suggested, let's get that
> done.

I personally feel that you're trying any way possible to get around
what Legal has said. It's very reasonable to assume that if you
attempted to do /something/, were told that Fedora can't help you
do /something/ but if you happen to look over /here/, that we are now
putting context into what /here/ is and what /here/ provides. This is
what Legal does not want us to do.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:28 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Legal Update

Jesse Keating wrote:



I personally feel that you're trying any way possible to get around
what Legal has said. It's very reasonable to assume that if you
attempted to do /something/, were told that Fedora can't help you
do /something/ but if you happen to look over /here/, that we are now
putting context into what /here/ is and what /here/ provides. This is
what Legal does not want us to do.


You are trying to guess the legal outcome based on engineering logic
which frequently is very different from logic (or what is the equivalent
there) in the legal world.


I personally feel that what I am proposing is just fine and if there is
any doubt about that, we should ask Red Hat Legal directly instead of
trying to guess what is allowed or not.


Rahul

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Old 11-19-2007, 03:29 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Legal Update

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:23:47 -0500
Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:

> I personally feel that you're trying any way possible to get around
> what Legal has said. It's very reasonable to assume that if you
> attempted to do /something/, were told that Fedora can't help you
> do /something/ but if you happen to look over /here/, that we are now
> putting context into what /here/ is and what /here/ provides. This is
> what Legal does not want us to do.

To put it another way; If you came to me and said you were thirsty. I
said I don't have water, because it's illegal for me to provide you
water. I give you a list of vendors that sell water, and also I have
this "Free alternative" link. This link takes you to a generic looking
list of buckets, no information about what is in each bucket. Is it
not logical that you would /assume/ that all of those buckets had water
in them?

--
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:33 PM
Thorsten Leemhuis
 
Default Legal Update

On 19.11.2007 16:09, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:23:58 +0530
> Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>> 3) Another dialog which offers the Fluendo codecs/ "Click here for
>> alternatives"
>> 4) User chooses to click on alternatives link
>> 5) Gets directed to Fedora wiki page which has a link to RPM Fusion
> This part smells a lot like having a "reason" why these other repos
> exist (like what kind of content are within) which is verboten.

Besides that: it smells a bit like "this solution is preferred, the
other one not". Is that what we want?

That actually a interesting point in general. E.g. if I start a new
fluendo-competition company tomorrow can I get my own codeina-like app
into Fedora? Or modify codeina so it points to my webshop as well?

IOW: Maybe we should create a webpage in the fedoraproject wiki. Then
instead of having codeina directly offering the solution for playing
popular multimedia formats let it direct users to the wiki page. Let
that one list the different solutions side by side with links to
homepage from foo and bar; those then can have "click here to use our
offerings" and "for playing baz afterwards run foobar install foobaz"

CU
knurd

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Old 11-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Legal Update

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:33:43 +0100
Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora@leemhuis.info> wrote:

> That actually a interesting point in general. E.g. if I start a new
> fluendo-competition company tomorrow can I get my own codeina-like app
> into Fedora? Or modify codeina so it points to my webshop as well?

Theoretically yes. It's unclear to me if the current build of codeina
supports multiple vendors though.

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Old 11-19-2007, 03:51 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default Legal Update

On Mon, 2007-11-19 at 21:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> What I understood is that is that we can't explicitly say in words the
> reason behind why we don't include certain software. I don't consider
> the context in the workflow that I described as not allowed. Spot, let
> me know what you think. If we need to get legal confirmation on the
> specific workflow as I suggested, let's get that done.

Like I've told several other people, it would depend on the precise way
that it is implemented.

Draft out a specific flow of action (with the exact wording) for what
you want to implement, and lets discuss it amongst ourselves. When we
are in agreement that it is the sort of thing that we'd like to try to
do, I'll run it past the lawyers, and we'll go from there.

~spot

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Old 11-19-2007, 04:15 PM
Karsten Wade
 
Default Legal Update

On Mon, 2007-11-19 at 17:33 +0100, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:

> Besides that: it smells a bit like "this solution is preferred, the
> other one not". Is that what we want?
>
> That actually a interesting point in general. E.g. if I start a new
> fluendo-competition company tomorrow can I get my own codeina-like app
> into Fedora? Or modify codeina so it points to my webshop as well?

How about what we really want, which is codeina pointing at zero web
shops?

> IOW: Maybe we should create a webpage in the fedoraproject wiki. Then
> instead of having codeina directly offering the solution for playing
> popular multimedia formats let it direct users to the wiki page. Let
> that one list the different solutions side by side with links to
> homepage from foo and bar; those then can have "click here to use our
> offerings" and "for playing baz afterwards run foobar install foobaz"

This is what we tried to have for Fedora 8. I trust that it is
being/has already been fixed in an update?

- Karsten
--
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:25 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Legal Update

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:


Like I've told several other people, it would depend on the precise way
that it is implemented.

Draft out a specific flow of action (with the exact wording) for what
you want to implement, and lets discuss it amongst ourselves. When we
are in agreement that it is the sort of thing that we'd like to try to
do, I'll run it past the lawyers, and we'll go from there.


The problem unfortunately is that, we don't seem to get past the stage
where we want to guess whether it's legal or not and nobody wants to
discuss what is that we want to accomplish assuming it is legal.


What I would want us to accomplish:
--------------------------------

Codeina offers a legal solution via Fluendo for those in regions that
accept and enforce patents on software. Unfortunately this favors a
non-free solution while there are perfectly legal (in regions which
don't enforce patents on software which happen to be the majority of the
world) free and open source software available via third party
repositories for Fedora.


What I would like for us to be able to do is point to a third party
repository (specifically the free repo of RPM Fusion) as a alternative
source in addition to Fluendo.


We have spending nitpicking my suggestions on how to accomplish this
rather than whether the above goal is something we agree on the whole or
not and then figure out how best to accomplish it.


Assuming we do, what I am suggesting below is a couple of potential ways
to get that done. Feel free to suggest better alternatives. Spot, I am
especially interested in hearing any proposals from you considering that
you are likely to be a better judge of what is allowed.


How To Get It Done
-------------------

Solution 1
----------

Refer http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Multimedia/Codeina to understand
what I am talking about.


* Retain the first dialog as it is.

* In the second dialog box, above "available products", have a link
"click here for free alternatives" which refers to a Fedora Wiki page
that references http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CodecBuddy and links to
the RPM Fusion free repo release package.


Solution 2
-----------

* In the first dialog, modify it so that it says, For more information,
refer to the Fedora Project website which links to the CodecBuddy wiki
page.


* Drop the "see available options" button and codeina.

* In http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CodecBuddy, refer to the Fluendo
website as well as RPM Fusion free repo release package.



Solution 3
----------

* Retain everything else as it is.

* Just modify http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CodecBuddy to link to the
RPM Fusion free repo release package.



Rahul

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Old 11-19-2007, 04:35 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Legal Update

Christopher Aillon wrote:

On 11/19/2007 06:25 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Codeina offers a legal solution via Fluendo for those in regions that
accept and enforce patents on software. Unfortunately this favors a
non-free solution while there are perfectly legal (in regions which
don't enforce patents on software which happen to be the majority of
the world) free and open source software available via third party
repositories for Fedora.


Careful. Not enforcing a law doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Right but in many regions of the world, there isn't any law that
validates patents on software directly. There are some Grey areas in
other regions.


Rahul

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