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Old 05-13-2011, 07:43 PM
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

----- "Adam Williamson" <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> It seems like an odd requirement. What if someone thinks you are a
> great
> candidate but also thinks someone else on the slate is a great
> candidate? We are electing five people, not one. What if someone
> thinks
> you are a great candidate but someone else on the slate is a terrible
> candidate, and wants to use their range vote to give the other
> candidates a reasonable number of votes and the one they think is
> terrible no votes? All of these things seem orthogonal to a person's
> support for you as a candidate, so the requirement seems a bit
> quixotic.

I hate to repeat myself but I am only asking 10 people to do so, if someone can't or chooses not to, that is fine they will split their votes however they want. The reason I am doing this is pretty simple, I'm asking 10 people to throw out range voting and cast a vote like they would in any 'normal' election.

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder |
| bob@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ |
| http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ |
| http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen |
| http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:51 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 19:43:01 +0000,
Robert 'Bob' Jensen <bob@fedoraunity.org> wrote:
> I hate to repeat myself but I am only asking 10 people to do so, if someone can't or chooses not to, that is fine they will split their votes however they want. The reason I am doing this is pretty simple, I'm asking 10 people to throw out range voting and cast a vote like they would in any 'normal' election.

Note that the way the vote works there is no vote splitting as there is no
summing of the votes you make for each candidate. Each candidate is scored
independently with a number beteween (inclusively) 0 to the number of
candidates. You can max out all candidates if you wish. (Though this has the
same net effect as ranking each candidate at zero.)
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:06 PM
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

----- "Bruno Wolff III" <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:
> Note that the way the vote works there is no vote splitting as there
> is no
> summing of the votes you make for each candidate. Each candidate is
> scored
> independently with a number beteween (inclusively) 0 to the number of
> candidates. You can max out all candidates if you wish. (Though this
> has the
> same net effect as ranking each candidate at zero.)

I understand how range voting works, I don't care for it personally but it is what we have. Problem is some don't. You can explain it to them but you can't understand it for them as my T-Shirt[1] says.

-- Bob

[1] http://www.tanga.com/products/i-can-explain-it-to-you-t-shirt

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder |
| bob@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ |
| http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ |
| http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen |
| http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:31 PM
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

----- "Adam Williamson" <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> It seems like an odd requirement. What if someone thinks you are a
> great
> candidate but also thinks someone else on the slate is a great
> candidate? We are electing five people, not one. What if someone
> thinks
> you are a great candidate but someone else on the slate is a terrible
> candidate, and wants to use their range vote to give the other
> candidates a reasonable number of votes and the one they think is
> terrible no votes? All of these things seem orthogonal to a person's
> support for you as a candidate, so the requirement seems a bit
> quixotic.

A correction, only three(3) seats are up for election.

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder |
| bob@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ |
| http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ |
| http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen |
| http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:47 PM
Jeff Spaleta
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
> It seems like an odd requirement. What if someone thinks you are a great
> candidate but also thinks someone else on the slate is a great
> candidate? We are electing five people, not one. What if someone thinks
> you are a great candidate but someone else on the slate is a terrible
> candidate, and wants to use their range vote to give the other
> candidates a reasonable number of votes and the one they think is
> terrible no votes? All of these things seem orthogonal to a person's
> support for you as a candidate, so the requirement seems a bit quixotic.

quixotic is an interesting word. In that context I believe Robert is
asking for 10 people to sign up has Sancho and play the role of
squire.

-jef"The lyrics of the song 'I like him' from Man of La Mancha would
be appropriate review material"spaleta
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:07 PM
Jon Stanley
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensen
<bob@fedoraunity.org> wrote:

> One of my requirements to accepting the nomination is that at least 10 people have to pledge all their Fedora Board votes exclusively to me, this means you don't give "range votes" to anyone else. You also put your name on the wiki page endorsing me, post about it on your blog, your facebook, the footers in your emails.

This seems an absolutely insane requirement, and very much against
what Fedora stands for (or at least what I believe Fedora stands for).
Fedora is a meritocracy, in which the people that rise to the top do
it by doing actual work, not by pulling publicity stunts like this.
You say that this is not about popularity, but then proceed to pull
something like this (which amounts to no more than attempting to raise
your popularity, and artificially diminish votes for others).

Also, destroying the confidentiality of the voting process (which is
what you're doing by forcing people to come out and say how they
voted) destroys the integrity of said process, in any context (be it
an election for the Fedora Board or the President of the United
States)

As someone that's running for election, that's all I'm going to say on
this matter. However, with me, people are free to vote any way that
they choose
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:48 PM
Jeff Spaleta
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Jon Stanley <jonstanley@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, destroying the confidentiality of the voting process (which is
> what you're doing by forcing people to come out and say how they
> voted) destroys the integrity of said process, in any context (be it
> an election for the Fedora Board or the President of the United
> States)

Forced? That is a bit strong. Bob is asking for strong personal
endorsements by 10 individuals as a mandate for running. Personal
endorsements ahead of an election are a generally accepted part of
politics even in US. So are election day voter polling. Making a
strong personal endorsement ahead of an election does not change the
fact that actual election is anonymous. As long as the granular range
data is not made public any of those 10 people who endorse him ahead
of the election could change their vote and Bob would not be the
wiser. What he is doing is ballsy and it certainly makes a statement
but it in no way undermines the anonymous nature of the vote itself.
He's making a strong statement as to what a personal endorsement looks
like in a range voting scenario.

Is it a pretty high bar to ask from 10 individuals in terms of a
personal endorsement? Absolutely.

But considering there's been some grumbling about whether the voting
turnout and general election participation represent a strong enough
mandate for any sitting board member... I think challenging community
members to make a strong personal endorsement of some nature is an
interesting approach to get ahead of that particular criticism.

Is this the right approach towards personal endorsement? I have no
idea. It's ballsy. I like Bob, I even think being on the Board might
help him be a better community leader, knock off some of the rough
edges, in the same way a rock tumbler shines up the dirty pieces of
quartz from my drive way when I was a kid. Am I ready to tell Bob I'm
going to forgo voting for anyone else as an endorsement? I'm not
sure.

What I am sure of is if I do, do that, and I _voluntarily_ give up the
ability to range vote for anyone else, I'm definitely going to hold
Bob accountable as _my_ representative in a way that range voting
equally for 3 people would not. And maybe that's Bob's point. Maybe he
wants to be accountable to some constituency...some group...who will
chew his ear off if he's taking wrong action.

The range voting mechanism may help hedge against polarization into
camps but maybe it also disassociates the chosen centrists from the
rank and file. Maybe personal endorsements help re-attach and
re-engage a little bit more strongly. Maybe Bob's way of approaching
endorsement isn't the optimal way, but it sure is interesting. It's
definitely made me stop and think.

-jef
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:54 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

On Fri, 2011-05-13 at 19:07 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensen
> <bob@fedoraunity.org> wrote:
>
> > One of my requirements to accepting the nomination is that at least 10 people have to pledge all their Fedora Board votes exclusively to me, this means you don't give "range votes" to anyone else. You also put your name on the wiki page endorsing me, post about it on your blog, your facebook, the footers in your emails.
>
> This seems an absolutely insane requirement, and very much against
> what Fedora stands for (or at least what I believe Fedora stands for).

Well... if you look at being on the board as basically volunteering to
stand in front of a firing squad... it might be nice to know there's at
least 10 people who will hold their fire before signing up for it ;-)

~m

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Old 05-14-2011, 12:02 AM
Jeff Spaleta
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

2011/5/13 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> Well... if you look at being on the board as basically volunteering to
> stand in front of a firing squad... it might be nice to know there's at
> least 10 people who will hold their fire before signing up for it ;-)

Hold their fire? Maybe, or maybe the 10 people would do you the favor
of a clean head shot and make it quick instead of toying with you.

Even if I decide to follow Bob's lead and meet his endorsement
requirement, I'm not sure if that will mean I'll give him more leeway.
I think it would mean I'd pay attention more and not show up at the
11th hour and derail a process because he'd be much more directly
representing me and I'd feel more personally connected with what he
was doing at the Board level and he'd know it.

-jef
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:16 AM
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
 
Default Fedora Project and Fedora Board

----- "Jon Stanley" <jonstanley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This seems an absolutely insane requirement, and very much against
> what Fedora stands for (or at least what I believe Fedora stands
> for).
> Fedora is a meritocracy, in which the people that rise to the top do
> it by doing actual work, not by pulling publicity stunts like this.
> You say that this is not about popularity, but then proceed to pull
> something like this (which amounts to no more than attempting to
> raise
> your popularity, and artificially diminish votes for others).
>
> Also, destroying the confidentiality of the voting process (which is
> what you're doing by forcing people to come out and say how they
> voted) destroys the integrity of said process, in any context (be it
> an election for the Fedora Board or the President of the United
> States)
>
> As someone that's running for election, that's all I'm going to say
> on
> this matter. However, with me, people are free to vote any way that
> they choose

Sorry Jon, I only had money for 10 yard signs in my campaign budget or I would have asked for more.

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder |
| bob@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ |
| http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ |
| http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen |
| http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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