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Old 02-01-2008, 09:28 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how
to answer it. So forwarding the question here.

"I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?"

-Mike

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Old 02-01-2008, 10:43 PM
"Thomas Chung"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Feb 1, 2008 2:28 PM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how
> to answer it. So forwarding the question here.
>
> "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?"
>
> -Mike


FYI, we have several people under age of 18 in Fedora Ambassadors
Project and they are doing an excellent jobs.
When they are interested in joining the project, we never ask their ages.
Although, they voluntarily tell me how old they are during the initial
interview for Ambassadors Project.
Regards,
--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

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Old 02-02-2008, 03:03 PM
"Karsten 'quaid' Wade"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how
> to answer it. So forwarding the question here.
>
> "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?"

Fedora are not lawyers and we do not hand out legal advise.

If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on
the subject as much as we can.

What is interesting to note, but not advise with!, is that the CLA
doesn't seem to be much different than many other usage policies. Read
the fine print for myspace.com, for example, which has many, many users
under the age of 18.

- Karsten, IANAL, TINLA, SBTFO
--
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41

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Old 02-04-2008, 04:11 AM
Axel Thimm
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

Hi Karsten,

On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> > The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how
> > to answer it. So forwarding the question here.
> >
> > "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?"
>
> Fedora are not lawyers and we do not hand out legal advise.
>
> If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on
> the subject as much as we can.

this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard
answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a
different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into
f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet).

No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it!

> What is interesting to note, but not advise with!, is that the CLA
> doesn't seem to be much different than many other usage policies. Read
> the fine print for myspace.com, for example, which has many, many users
> under the age of 18.
>
> - Karsten, IANAL, TINLA, SBTFO

--
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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Old 02-04-2008, 04:29 AM
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how
> to answer it. So forwarding the question here.
>
> "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?"

Personally I have no problem with letting individuals of 13 years or
older contribute of their own accord. COPPA requires "verifiable
parental consent" for individuals younger than that.

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm

--
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet@gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:27 AM
"Karsten 'quaid' Wade"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> >
> >
> > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on
> > the subject as much as we can.
>
> this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard
> answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a
> different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into
> f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet).
>
> No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it!

Axel:

Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking
questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers.

For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age
of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we
didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of
current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance.

Another way to look at this is, how do we turn pursuing this question
where the answer can lead to *more* contributors?

One idea that I like was having a teacher proxy or co-sign for a class
working on a FLOSS contribution. I don't see that as a nice way to
simplify the contributor process for some people.

- Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:22 PM
"Yaakov Nemoy"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on
> > > the subject as much as we can.
> >
> > this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard
> > answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a
> > different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into
> > f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet).
> >
> > No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it!
>
> Axel:
>
> Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking
> questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers.
>
> For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age
> of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we
> didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of
> current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance.

Is this safer than turning a blind eye to it, and finding out we can
be sued later? I think it would be smarter to ask the lawyers,
knowing full well that we'll need a sane plan if they say no to anyone
under 18 without additional paperwork. It's just one boring chore
that could save our butts down the road.

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Old 02-04-2008, 06:13 PM
Axel Thimm
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:22:28AM -0500, Yaakov Nemoy wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on
> > > > the subject as much as we can.
> > >
> > > this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard
> > > answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a
> > > different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into
> > > f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet).
> > >
> > > No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it!
> >
> > Axel:
> >
> > Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking
> > questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers.
> >
> > For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age
> > of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we
> > didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of
> > current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance.
>
> Is this safer than turning a blind eye to it, and finding out we can
> be sued later? I think it would be smarter to ask the lawyers,
> knowing full well that we'll need a sane plan if they say no to anyone
> under 18 without additional paperwork. It's just one boring chore
> that could save our butts down the road.

Let's take the middle road: Karsten asks the lawyers, and if the
answer is something we don't want to hear he lets the thread silenty
die (and maybe PMs so we don't ask again . Otherwise he replies to
it with good news

Promoting Fedora Child Labour, now endorsing half-blind man tactics -
what else will I mutate into these days ...

More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand
and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a
proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal
procedure to point to.
--
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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Old 02-04-2008, 06:26 PM
"John Babich"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Feb 4, 2008 10:13 PM, Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm@atrpms.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:22:28AM -0500, Yaakov Nemoy wrote:

> Let's take the middle road: Karsten asks the lawyers, and if the
> answer is something we don't want to hear he lets the thread silenty
> die (and maybe PMs so we don't ask again . Otherwise he replies to
> it with good news
>

Fedora is a success because Red Hat takes the law seriously, even if
it sometimes makes life difficult (encumbered codecs, anyone?).

> Promoting Fedora Child Labour, now endorsing half-blind man tactics -
> what else will I mutate into these days ...
>

Shame on you :-)

> More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand
> and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a
> proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal
> procedure to point to.
>

+1

Best Regards,

John "IANAL" Babich
Volunteer, Fedora Project

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Old 02-04-2008, 06:29 PM
"Jon Stanley"
 
Default Under 18, Wants to contribute

On Feb 4, 2008 2:13 PM, Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm@atrpms.net> wrote:

> More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand
> and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a
> proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal
> procedure to point to.

+1. Let me peer into my magic 8 ball now. I already know what the
lawyers are going to say - the CLA is a signed, binding legal
agreement. You have to have attained the age of majority in your
jurisdiction, wherever that may be (18 in the US, don't know about
other countries) in order to sign it. No different than applying for
a credit card, etc - both agreements give you legal rights and
obligations.

While this may not be the answer that *we* want, it is the legal
answer (IANAL though). What we need is some stated process for
parental consent that's not too cumbersome.

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