Fedora 20 (yes, F20).

Do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the Law.


On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Jon Masters
>> >
>> > This is a community. It is not a carnival booth shooting game.
>>
i'm sorry. i shoulda put on the 'smiley' at the
end. i didn't mean my crummy attempt at humour
in a personal way.


>> It was pointed out to me that the "thou wilt" text may be a top-posted
>> quote/fortune (although in my 16 years of using the internet I've never
>> seen that before.) If that is the case I apologize.
>
> Funny, I read it as some kind of Libertarian-"inspired" nonsense
>
> Jon.

the quote (often misconstrued)
is a two parter, and seems best
split between top & bottom.

charles zeitler

--





Love is the law, love under will.
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On 09/09/2010 01:24 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>
> Think for a minute or two. What do *you* think Fedora should focus on
> for F15 and F16? How about F17? F18? F19...or... F20? What should F20
> look like, how should it be, who uses it.... at least, for us to have
> succeeded towards achieving our mission as a project?

I want applications. Good applications with which I can get my work
done, like a good video editor, an office suite that does not suck, a
messaging application able to communicate with people and so on.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
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On Monday, September 13, 2010 08:18:54 am Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 09/09/2010 01:24 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > Think for a minute or two. What do *you* think Fedora should focus on
> > for F15 and F16? How about F17? F18? F19...or... F20? What should F20
> > look like, how should it be, who uses it.... at least, for us to have
> > succeeded towards achieving our mission as a project?
>
> I want applications. Good applications with which I can get my work
> done, like a good video editor, an office suite that does not suck, a
> messaging application able to communicate with people and so on.

Yes - that should be goal. But - it's mostly out of our scope. Same apply for
Fedora 20 - it's not so far but again - it depends mostly on our upstreams. If
we want to define our product, we have to be able define products we depends on.
This apply for F14, F20 (if we stay with current versioning scheme) etc. It's
not easy to control it from downstream as we are trying now!

Jaroslav
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On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, September 13, 2010 08:18:54 am Nicu Buculei wrote:
> > On 09/09/2010 01:24 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > > Think for a minute or two. What do *you* think Fedora should focus on
> > > for F15 and F16? How about F17? F18? F19...or... F20? What should F20
> > > look like, how should it be, who uses it.... at least, for us to have
> > > succeeded towards achieving our mission as a project?
> >
> > I want applications. Good applications with which I can get my work
> > done, like a good video editor, an office suite that does not suck, a
> > messaging application able to communicate with people and so on.
>
> Yes - that should be goal. But - it's mostly out of our scope. Same apply for
> Fedora 20 - it's not so far but again - it depends mostly on our upstreams. If
> we want to define our product, we have to be able define products we depends on.
> This apply for F14, F20 (if we stay with current versioning scheme) etc. It's
> not easy to control it from downstream as we are trying now!

I think it's a mistake to say that it's out of our control (scope).
This is where the terms "best of breed" or "best of class" come into
play. *While Fedora isn't directly steering the direction of, say,
Firefox or OpenOffice.org, the project does, as an organization have
the freedom to pick those upstream applications that meet with Nico's
needs.

Furthermore, I don't think Fedora is trying to "control" upstreams,
nor is there any need to. I think we can safely make the assumption
that upstream development teams are interested in seeing their
software used. With that in mind, I think it's safe to let the chips
fall where they may and assume we'll have several "best of breed"
applications to choose from to meet a given use case.

Perhaps this is the point you were driving at with your comment that
we need to define those products we depend on. Is there a need, in
your view, to define specific applications on a per category basis?
For example, do we define the Fedora web browser as "Firefox" and the
Fedora office suite as "OpenOffice.org" immutably going forward? Or
do we take a more relaxed approach and opt to remain free to replace
either as better applications enter common use?

--
Chris
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On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 18:24 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> It seems like the convo kind of peters out here on the list [1], so
> let's do a live chat on IRC and see what we come up with. Here's some
> times during the rest of this week and early next week. Can you make any
> of them?
>
> http://whenisgood.net/srij2a
>
> Fill it out with your available times! I'll try to announce a time by
> this Friday AM for us to meet based on the responses I got. We'll hold
> the discussion in #fedora-advisory-board on irc.freenode.net.

I got 2 responses.

The IRC chat will be tomorrow, 14 Sep 2010, at 3 PM Eastern time, which
is 1900 UTC, in #fedora-advisory-board. Hope to see you there.

~m

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On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 08:22:59 -0400,
Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 18:24 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > It seems like the convo kind of peters out here on the list [1], so
> > let's do a live chat on IRC and see what we come up with. Here's some
> > times during the rest of this week and early next week. Can you make any
> > of them?
> >
> > http://whenisgood.net/srij2a
> >
> > Fill it out with your available times! I'll try to announce a time by
> > this Friday AM for us to meet based on the responses I got. We'll hold
> > the discussion in #fedora-advisory-board on irc.freenode.net.
>
> I got 2 responses.
>
> The IRC chat will be tomorrow, 14 Sep 2010, at 3 PM Eastern time, which
> is 1900 UTC, in #fedora-advisory-board. Hope to see you there.

I probably won't make it tomorrow, but here is some stuff I'd like to see
by Fedora 20.

Good video card support. This means 3D support comparable to windows drivers.
Just working 3D is not the same as supporting more recent OpenGL features
efficiently.

More engaging games in Fedora. I have weekly LAN game sessions with some
friends. And even though I installed Fedora for dual boot on those machines,
we haven't gone through a period where we played games using Fedora. (Typically
we'll play the same game for a few months and then switch.)

This may be out of scope, but I'd like to see a lot more Fedora contributors
by then. I don't have time to work on everything I would like to see worked
on and would like to see other people doing some of this stuff so that it
gets done.
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Christofer C. Bell (christofer.c.bell@gmail.com) said:
> It's from the "religious philosophy" called Thelema[1], invented Aleister
> Crowley[1], who self titled himself "The Great Beast." It means, roughly,
> "whatever you want to do (generally from a hedonistic perspective), just do
> it," or, "I'm an angst ridden kid who likes to mark my rebellion against The
> Man(tm) by trying to shock adults."

And here I thought it was a 19th-century version of the WTFPL.

Bill
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Hi!

On 09.09.2010 00:24, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> Think for a minute or two. What do *you* think Fedora should focus on
> for F15 and F16? How about F17? F18? F19...or... F20? What should F20
> look like, how should it be, who uses it.... at least, for us to have
> succeeded towards achieving our mission as a project?
>
> Okay, hold that thought.

I'm not that active in Fedora these days -- partly because Fedora seems
to more and more develop into a direction I don't like much. The later
is the reason why I'll bit and answer this; but I write it here and not
on IRC, as I think it's a lot easier to lay out thoughts like those
below in a mail.

Here we go:

* latest kernels and all the userland packages with drivers
(gutenprint, hplip, xorg-drv-*, sane-backends, ...) should go out to
users as testing update within a few days after they got released and
out as regular update within roughly three or four weeks after they got
released. That way users won't have to wait months to make newly
released hardware work with Fedora, as those hardware will often require
new and improved drivers that are part of new kernels, xdrivers, ...

* cooperate even more closely with upstream: (1) try harder to not
include patches which are not upstream yet, (2) make upstream better
aware of the problems distributions face (see also next bullet point
below), and (3) if upstream ships a new version then normally sent it
out to users as testing update a few days after it got released and as
regular update within something like three weeks. This scheme needs a
bit of flexibility depending on how good and sane the upstream in
question works. Something like "kde 4.0.0" of course should not have
immediately replaced kde 3.x for each and everyone. Another example:
firefox 4.0.0 might better be shipped as testing update only till
firefox 4.0.1 comes out; especially software that is not supported
upstream anymore (for small software with only a handful of developers
that'll most often include "x - 1" and older releases) should be updated
to the latest version to make sure upstream is interested in bug reports
for our users

* for packages that properly honour above upstream policy do only
accept packaging bugs in Fedora; everything else should be moved or
directly reported upstream. Then it can get solved there (with
involvement of the Fedora maintainer ) and will make upstream aware of
the problems distributions and their users face; that is better than
package maintainers of dozens or hundreds of distribution trying to fix
and work around the same bugs or limitation, as that results in lot of
wasted work

* Okay, yes, grated, there are users that don't want updates like the
ones I outlined at the first two pullet points. Those IMHO are better of
with CentOS/RHEL, but support for consumer hardware is those sometimes
is not the best.

So to not ignore those users we should maintain two "current" releases
(in parallel to rawhide); one that is maintained in a more rolling
release like scheme similar to rawhide; it should contains up2date
software (like outlined in the first two bullet points), but normally
*not* contain any (pre-)alpha or beta code (like rawhide does). Such a
distribution of course would be a bit more moving and up2date then
Fedora is these days. But that is something some people want afaics; for
those that find such a scheme to dangerous maintain a second "current"
release in a similar way to how OpenSuse and Ubuntu maintain their
distribution today: Mostly bug fixes only.

* have a official sanctioned 3rd party repo and work with it way more
closely than Fedora does today, to make sure it can do things properly
Fedora can't or doesn't want to do; that should even include things
Fedora doesn't like, to make sure that repo can provide a distro that is
based on a unmodified Fedora, but offers some of those things that
people like on Ubuntu (easy installation of those crappy proprietary
drivers for example)

* have a official sanctioned and supported external side for docs
targeting users, to make sure that side can mention things from the
official sanctioned 3rd party repo without risking legal problems

* sudo or something like similar with a compatible "sudo" command by
default

That's all that sprung to my mind right now. HTH

Cu
knurd

P.S.: I'd really would have liked to write "integrate CentOS into the
Fedora project and make it our LTS release" as a bulled point, but I'd
guess then even more people would have thought "Thorsten finally went
completely mad" after reading this mail ;-)
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On Mon, 2010-09-13 at 08:22 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> I got 2 responses.
>
> The IRC chat will be tomorrow, 14 Sep 2010, at 3 PM Eastern time, which
> is 1900 UTC, in #fedora-advisory-board. Hope to see you there.

Okay with only 3 schedules to juggle I managed to screw this up
(conflict with the Fedora design team meeting) so I am moving this to 5
pm ET tomorrow; 2100 UTC.

~m

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Rats. I was going to sit in, but with the schedule change it's now during the Felton Farmers Market, where the local LUG gives out "organic software". Will check the logs and wil try to make the next meeting.


Larry Cafiero

2010/9/13 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>

On Mon, 2010-09-13 at 08:22 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> I got 2 responses.

>

> The IRC chat will be tomorrow, 14 Sep 2010, at 3 PM Eastern time, which

> is 1900 UTC, in #fedora-advisory-board. Hope to see you there.



Okay with only 3 schedules to juggle I managed to screw this up

(conflict with the Fedora design team meeting) so I am moving this to 5

pm ET tomorrow; 2100 UTC.



~m



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