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After a lengthy discussion on IRC, they told me to post here.

I am trying to get a package in the repos, http://launchpad.net/gasp , so that it can be used on the OLPC XO.


Unfortunately, I am not legaly allowed to sign contracts, as I am <18 but >13. My name also cannot be disclosed. I would be able to aquire parental permission to do so, but I still would not be permitted from having my name appear in the logs, instead being identified by my psyudonym, "ffm".


I understand the concern on the part of end users who would like to know who is making their software, but is there any way I can disclose such information only to the Red Hat corperation, but not to the world?

*
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/userbox.cgi reqires that my name be included, which I would rather not do.

Thanks,
FFM

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On Jan 17, 2008 4:21 PM, ffm <ffm@intserverror.com> wrote:
> After a lengthy discussion on IRC, they told me to post here.
>
> I am trying to get a package in the repos, http://launchpad.net/gasp , so
> that it can be used on the OLPC XO.
>
> Unfortunately, I am not legaly allowed to sign contracts, as I am <18 but
> >13. My name also cannot be disclosed.

> I would be able to aquire parental
> permission to do so, but I still would not be permitted from having my name
> appear in the logs, instead being identified by my psyudonym, "ffm".

Your name cannot be disclosed legally? Or is it just undesirable to
be disclosed? I can understand there possibly being an issue with
being a minor with regard to legal contracts, but not being able to
have your name disclosed on a legal basis seems odd to me.

Can't we have your legal guardian sign the contract taking
responsibility for your actions by doing so, and be willing to
disclose their name in place of yours whenever necessary?

>
> I understand the concern on the part of end users who would like to know who
> is making their software, but is there any way I can disclose such
> information only to the Red Hat corperation, but not to the world?
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/userbox.cgi reqires that my name be
> included, which I would rather not do.

I'm not sure its appropriate to allow anonymous contribution. But I
am sensitive to the issue of minors exposing personal information.
Perhaps its enough to allow minors to participate with
parental/guardian consent in such a way that the project can disclose
the parent's name as a contributor, but then the minors who are doing
the actual contributing remain anonymous.

It's an interesting issue.

-jef

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On Jan 17, 2008 8:53 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 17, 2008 4:21 PM, ffm <ffm@intserverror.com> wrote:
> After a lengthy discussion on IRC, they told me to post here.
>
> I am trying to get a package in the repos,
http://launchpad.net/gasp , so
> that it can be used on the OLPC XO.
>
> Unfortunately, I am not legaly allowed to sign contracts, as I am <18 but

> >13. My name also cannot be disclosed.

> I would be able to aquire parental
> permission to do so, but I still would not be permitted from having my name
> appear in the logs, instead being identified by my psyudonym, "ffm".


Your name cannot be disclosed legally? *Or is it just undesirable to
be disclosed? I can understand there possibly being an issue with
being a minor with regard to legal contracts, but not being able to

have your name disclosed on a legal basis seems odd to me.*I have no problem with Red Hat knowing my name, nor do my parents, but it would be prefered that this information was* not in the public logs, at least not googleable. I am not sure on the legal issues of this.


Can't we have your legal guardian sign the contract taking
responsibility for your actions by doing so, and be willing to

disclose their name in place of yours whenever necessary?
That's why I am asking here.

Thanks,
FFM


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On Jan 17, 2008 5:21 PM, ffm <ffm@intserverror.com> wrote:
> After a lengthy discussion on IRC, they told me to post here.
>
> I am trying to get a package in the repos, http://launchpad.net/gasp , so
> that it can be used on the OLPC XO.
>
> Unfortunately, I am not legaly allowed to sign contracts, as I am <18 but
> >13. My name also cannot be disclosed. I would be able to aquire parental
> permission to do so, but I still would not be permitted from having my name
> appear in the logs, instead being identified by my psyudonym, "ffm".
>
> I understand the concern on the part of end users who would like to know who
> is making their software, but is there any way I can disclose such
> information only to the Red Hat corperation, but not to the world?
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/userbox.cgi reqires that my name be
> included, which I would rather not do.

You could have one of your parents sign up for a Fedora account in
their name, complete the agreement, and give the account login info to
you (possibly even using your e-mail address). Since they are legally
responsible for your actions and are the ones who need to sign
contracts for you, it seems like it should work...?

Best,
-- Elliot

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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 20:58 -0500, ffm wrote:
> I have no problem with Red Hat knowing my name, nor do my parents, but it
> would be prefered that this information was not in the public logs, at
> least not googleable. I am not sure on the legal issues of this.

I don't think your age is relevant in the context of this question, if
question it is.

I don't believe that anonymous contributions are appropriate, and I
think that anyone requesting them would have to be fairly confused.

You seem relatively sensible and coherent -- I'm guessing that it's not
actually _you_ who would prefer your name to be hidden?

--
dwmw2

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On Jan 18, 2008 5:44 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> wrote:


You seem relatively sensible and coherent -- I'm guessing that it's not
actually _you_ who would prefer your name to be hidden?

Correct. Sadly, it isn't my decision. I would have no problem with giving out my name, but I am otherwise barred.


-ffm

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On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 18:06 +0000, ffm wrote:
> On Jan 18, 2008 5:44 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> wrote:
>
> You seem relatively sensible and coherent -- I'm guessing that
> it's not actually _you_ who would prefer your name to be
> hidden?
>
> Correct. Sadly, it isn't my decision. I would have no problem with
> giving out my name, but I am otherwise barred.

Well, whether we let you contribute to Fedora or not isn't my decision
-- but if it were, I would reluctantly say 'no'. I sympathise with your
position, but we need to have some accountability for contributions, and
I think that allowing anonymous contributors is a very bad precedent to
set.

I don't much like the idea of letting some company, even my esteemed
employer, keep contributors' identities in 'escrow'. Fedora should be an
independent project, and I have a distinct feeling that the conspiracy
nuts would go wild with such an arrangement.

I'm sorry to be unhelpful, especially as I'd really welcome your
contributions to OLPC.

The best I can do is to wish you good luck with the overly paranoid
people you have to deal with. Help them to keep taking the tablets, and
maybe they'll relent some time before you come of age. You really ought
to be permitted to give your name, rank and serial number, if nothing
else :)

Others may disagree with me and allow you to contribute, of course -- s
I said, it's not my decision. Or maybe you can find a package-monkey to
volunteer to do the Fedora commits/builds/etc. for you, while you do the
real work of maintaining the package?

--
dwmw2


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On Jan 18, 2008 5:35 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> wrote:
> I don't much like the idea of letting some company, even my esteemed
> employer, keep contributors' identities in 'escrow'. Fedora should be an
> independent project, and I have a distinct feeling that the conspiracy
> nuts would go wild with such an arrangement.

One thing I thought was interesting was that he said his name couldn't
be somewhere "Googleable". I wonder if it would be possible to hide a
minor's real name in the fedora accounts system yet still have it
available to say members of the Fedora Board for accountability and
verification reasons. Obviously there has to be a level of trust
between the minor, the parrents, the people able to access his
identity, and the Fedora project members as a whole.

While I feel strongly about not allowing anonymous contributions, I
don't want to close out people in similar situations as ffm. I think
this is a case I think we'll see again and we should be encouraging
participation of motivated minors. This is a topic that brings up
many difficult issues that may require a great deal of work both
technical, and legal / political, but I'd like to see it resolved in a
way that will allow us to effectivly mentor the future of Fedora.

Besides, I know many a kid out there that's way smarter than me. ;-)
I'd hate to miss out on the good work they could be doing. When they
turn 18 we can give them the credit they deserve.

--
Russell Harrison
Systems Administrator -- Linux Desktops
Cisco Systems, Inc.

Note: The positions or opinions expressed in this email are my own.
They are not necessarily those of my employer.

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On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 18:18 -0500, Russell Harrison wrote:
> While I feel strongly about not allowing anonymous contributions, I
> don't want to close out people in similar situations as ffm. I think
> this is a case I think we'll see again and we should be encouraging
> participation of motivated minors.

As I said, I don't think his age is relevant to this question. The
answer should be the same for an adult as it is for a minor. It's not
about whether he can execute the CLA in his own right -- it's about the
anonymity.

For whatever reason, this potential contributor chooses to remain
anonymous. And I for one do not think that's appropriate for a Fedora
contributor.

It is not our business whether he does that because of a deeply confused
state of mind of his own, or because of bizarre and stupid restrictions
imposed on him by a third party, to whom he chooses to defer on this
issue. It's certainly not our business that that third party seems to be
his parent or guardian, and it's not relevant to us, in that context,
that he's under 18.

--
dwmw2

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On Sat, 2008-01-19 at 08:48 +0800, David Woodhouse wrote:
> For whatever reason, this potential contributor chooses to remain
> anonymous. And I for one do not think that's appropriate for a Fedora
> contributor.

I agree. His age is irrelevant, but we cannot have anonymous
contributions and still be accountable.

~spot

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