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Old 07-01-2010, 08:57 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default fedora community working group

On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a couple
of years ago to help deal with similar issues. I propose creating
something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working group',
http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php

I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear contact
person/group to go to in cases where they experience any non-excellent
behavior.

Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time to
consider doing better, so...

After speaking with several current members of kde's cwg, they expressed
that it was very important to have a clear code of conduct(coc). Such a
coc should focus entirely on what is good and expected, and stay away
from what is bad and discouraged. Another good reference,
http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/

-- Rex
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:17 AM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default fedora community working group

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:56 -0500
Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:

> On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
> suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a
> couple of years ago to help deal with similar issues. I propose
> creating something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working
> group', http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
>
> I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
> feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear
> contact person/group to go to in cases where they experience any
> non-excellent behavior.
>
> Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time
> to consider doing better, so...

I like this as a possibly way to find areas of Fedora where our
community isn't as welcoming as we all would like and have people that
can join in and provide positive info and answers (ignoring or letting
the unwelcoming people drift off to the fringe).

I do think we should be carefull here not to empower this group with
all kinds of punishment ability or enforcement. Negativity feeds on
more Negativity.

> After speaking with several current members of kde's cwg, they
> expressed that it was very important to have a clear code of
> conduct(coc). Such a coc should focus entirely on what is good and
> expected, and stay away from what is bad and discouraged. Another
> good reference, http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/

I'm not sure about a code of conduct, but the above one is nice. It
points out things you should try to do/be, not things you cannot do or
be, which is a good approach.

kevin
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:40 AM
Joerg Simon
 
Default fedora community working group

Am 02.07.2010 07:17, schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
> I'm not sure about a code of conduct, but the above one is nice. It
> points out things you should try to do/be, not things you cannot do or
> be, which is a good approach.

as we consider the Fedora Ambassadors the Diplomats of the Fedora
Project we have already a Code of Conduct - FAmSCo is working on it
right now to improve it

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct

what i also like much is our introduction to the Ambassdor Group

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors_Join_start

I know all this is special and can not taken for the whole Fedora
Project but wanted to share it to let you know that we have such things
in separate Groups inside Fedora as well.


cu Joerg
--
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jsimon@fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:16 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default fedora community working group

Hi Kevin + Rex, sorry for letting this thread sit.

On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 11:17:00PM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:56 -0500
> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
>
> > On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
> > suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a
> > couple of years ago to help deal with similar issues. I propose
> > creating something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working
> > group', http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
> >
> > I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
> > feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear
> > contact person/group to go to in cases where they experience any
> > non-excellent behavior.
> >
> > Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time
> > to consider doing better, so...
>
> I like this as a possibly way to find areas of Fedora where our
> community isn't as welcoming as we all would like and have people that
> can join in and provide positive info and answers (ignoring or letting
> the unwelcoming people drift off to the fringe).
>
> I do think we should be carefull here not to empower this group with
> all kinds of punishment ability or enforcement. Negativity feeds on
> more Negativity.

I know I'm speaking somewhat as a "lame duck" FPL here :-) but before
I'd expect any community members to buy into a code of conduct, they'd
likely want to know (1) what problems the code is intended to solve,
(2) how the code affects people who violate it repeatedly, and (3) how
we tell whether it works or not.

I completely agree that we can't battle negativity with more
negativity. On the other hand, a code of conduct can't be effective
if it's not enforced in some fashion. Case in point, the KDE
community group does take remedial action in incremental steps,
starting with mediation and discussion. In cases of repeat
infractions or escalation, they progress to suspension in some cases.

There have been previous discussions about a code of conduct here and
the consensus at the time seemed to be that community members would
continue to follow it (or not) as they have in the past, whether it
was formalized or not. And ISTR that some community members were
concerned that laying out rules of proper conduct would create
opportunities for unproductive language-lawyering. At the same time,
there are certainly problems with the "we know it when we see it"
approach.

What happens, in both your views, if someone repeatedly violates a
code of conduct?

> > After speaking with several current members of kde's cwg, they
> > expressed that it was very important to have a clear code of
> > conduct(coc). Such a coc should focus entirely on what is good and
> > expected, and stay away from what is bad and discouraged. Another
> > good reference, http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
>
> I'm not sure about a code of conduct, but the above one is nice. It
> points out things you should try to do/be, not things you cannot do or
> be, which is a good approach.

I'm still not sold on a code per se, but I agree good ones are
prescriptive rather than proscriptive, like the KDE CoC linked above.
The GNOME CoC is shorter, but still captures many (not all) of the
same points: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct



--
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:25 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 11:16 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> There have been previous discussions about a code of conduct here and
> the consensus at the time seemed to be that community members would
> continue to follow it (or not) as they have in the past, whether it
> was formalized or not. And ISTR that some community members were
> concerned that laying out rules of proper conduct would create
> opportunities for unproductive language-lawyering. At the same time,
> there are certainly problems with the "we know it when we see it"
> approach.
>
> What happens, in both your views, if someone repeatedly violates a
> code of conduct?


I believe the quote that I tend to follow is:

"Aw judge your damn laws, the good people don't need 'em and the bad
people don't obey 'em. So, what use are they?" - Ammon Hennesey via Utah
Phillips


-sv



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Old 07-07-2010, 03:34 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default fedora community working group

On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> I completely agree that we can't battle negativity with more
> negativity. On the other hand, a code of conduct can't be effective
> if it's not enforced in some fashion. Case in point, the KDE
> community group does take remedial action in incremental steps,
> starting with mediation and discussion. In cases of repeat
> infractions or escalation, they progress to suspension in some cases.
...
> What happens, in both your views, if someone repeatedly violates a
> code of conduct?

s/violates/doesn't live up to/

But, yeah, I'd suggest following someting close to the model you
mentioned, graduated interventions by whatever <enforcing_entity>, be
that some newly formed cwg or fpb or whatever.

-- Rex
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Rex Dieter wrote:

> On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> > I'm still not sold on a code per se,
>
> At the risk of being repetitive, let me go into more why I firmly
> believe we need this badly. I'd like to think that many(some?) of those
> folks that can be coerced/taught to be community-friendly simply do not
> know what they are doing is wrong/bad, and have no clear understanding
> of that is expected of them.
>
> Yes, this could be seen as largely common-sense by some, but when it
> comes to large communities comprised of many different cultures whose
> primary communication channels are not face-to-face, it's often far from
> obvious.
>

I'm for it. It help set the expectations we have of everyone and lets us
be more specific when people don't live up to those expectations.

-Mike
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:46 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default fedora community working group

On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> I'm still not sold on a code per se,

At the risk of being repetitive, let me go into more why I firmly
believe we need this badly. I'd like to think that many(some?) of those
folks that can be coerced/taught to be community-friendly simply do not
know what they are doing is wrong/bad, and have no clear understanding
of that is expected of them.

Yes, this could be seen as largely common-sense by some, but when it
comes to large communities comprised of many different cultures whose
primary communication channels are not face-to-face, it's often far from
obvious.

> but I agree good ones are
> prescriptive rather than proscriptive, like the KDE CoC linked above.
> The GNOME CoC is shorter, but still captures many (not all) of the
> same points: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct

Oh, and +1 to using the gnome coc as a guide too, very nice.

-- Rex

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Old 07-07-2010, 03:47 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 10:46 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> > I'm still not sold on a code per se,
>
> At the risk of being repetitive, let me go into more why I firmly
> believe we need this badly. I'd like to think that many(some?) of those
> folks that can be coerced/taught to be community-friendly simply do not
> know what they are doing is wrong/bad, and have no clear understanding
> of that is expected of them.
>
> Yes, this could be seen as largely common-sense by some, but when it
> comes to large communities comprised of many different cultures whose
> primary communication channels are not face-to-face, it's often far from
> obvious.
>

I have to ask this: Do you honestly believe that the poisonous people we
have in our community don't understand that what they are doing is
harmful? Are we to believe that they've never been in common human
society before, that fedora was their first introduction to
working/interacting with others?

I'm sorry, I don't think that's the case, they are not 'babes in the
woods'. They are toxic and a CoC is not gonna cut it, IMO.

-sv




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Old 07-07-2010, 03:53 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 10:45 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Rex Dieter wrote:
>
> > On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still not sold on a code per se,
> >
> > At the risk of being repetitive, let me go into more why I firmly
> > believe we need this badly. I'd like to think that many(some?) of those
> > folks that can be coerced/taught to be community-friendly simply do not
> > know what they are doing is wrong/bad, and have no clear understanding
> > of that is expected of them.
> >
> > Yes, this could be seen as largely common-sense by some, but when it
> > comes to large communities comprised of many different cultures whose
> > primary communication channels are not face-to-face, it's often far from
> > obvious.
> >
>
> I'm for it. It help set the expectations we have of everyone and lets us
> be more specific when people don't live up to those expectations.
>

It's only going to encourage people to game the rules. It's the same
thing they do now. Play along the borders to see how far they can push
the boundaries and then when they find a spot, push hard against and
then plead that the rules don't forbid it so it MUST be okay and plead
ignorance: that they could not have known b/c the rules didn't say so.

I'm so tired of this I can't see straight.

-sv


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