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Old 07-07-2010, 10:25 PM
Karsten Wade
 
Default fedora community working group

On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 03:57:56PM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
> suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a couple
> of years ago to help deal with similar issues. I propose creating
> something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working group',
> http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
>
> I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
> feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear contact
> person/group to go to in cases where they experience any non-excellent
> behavior.

This has been lost in the discussion and I want to come back to it.

+1 to forming a community working group along the lines of the KDE
CWG.

It seems premature to predict what that CWG is going to decide. They
haven't even been formed and decided if we need to build a bikeshed
before we're debating its color.

I.e., working group first, let that group tackle the "what document do
we ask people to read and understand" question.

This also means a CWG needs to have a fairly light mission to start.
For example, the KDE CWG has a lot of specific duties around the code
of conduct. Let the CWG rewrite and add to its purposes to form a
what-is-needed team instead of a what-we-expected.

> Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time to
> consider doing better, so...
>
> After speaking with several current members of kde's cwg, they expressed
> that it was very important to have a clear code of conduct(coc). Such a
> coc should focus entirely on what is good and expected, and stay away
> from what is bad and discouraged. Another good reference,
> http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/

I respectfully take that advice, but if I were on the CWG I'd want to
do my own research first. Even the KDE and GNOME are different on the
enforcement side. I'd want to know what current research on *this*
community is showing us.[0]

My first reaction, fwiw, is that "code of conduct" is a loaded term
that comes with expectations. Note immediate reactions of "Yes!",
"No!" on this list.

Let's form a working group to look at this. Let them do the work with
transparency and high levels of input. Whatever they come up with
will have more supporters (regardless of what it's called) as an end
result of that.

No need for it to take long, we could self-organize and have a lot of
work done by September. Just researching and working on the issues
openly will raise morale, draw attention to problem areas, resolve
problems, etc.

This whole area of "what to do with poisonous people" is full of
soundbites and clever presentations. It would behoove us to have a
focus group take care of beginning and ongoing research, and acting as
an intermediary/mediator, etc. Work could happen on this mailing
list, at least to start.

You may have heard that folks are taking Bhutan's lead in tracking
"Gross National Happiness"[1]. A community working group could find
ways to track and reveal the satisfaction/happiness level of
contributors to some breadth and depth (over time.)

- Karsten

[0] http://www.cyber-anthro.com/
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_happiness
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture
uri: http://TheOpenSourceWay.org/wiki
gpg: AD0E0C41
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:17 PM
inode0
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Paul Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:09 PM, inode0 <inode0@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@tummy.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:56 -0500
>>> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
>>>> suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a
>>>> couple of years ago to help deal with similar issues. *I propose
>>>> creating something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working
>>>> group', http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
>>>>
>>>> I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
>>>> feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear
>>>> contact person/group to go to in cases where they experience any
>>>> non-excellent behavior.
>>>>
>>>> Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time
>>>> to consider doing better, so...
>>>
>>> I like this as a possibly way to find areas of Fedora where our
>>> community isn't as welcoming as we all would like and have people that
>>> can join in and provide positive info and answers (ignoring or letting
>>> the unwelcoming people drift off to the fringe).
>>
>> At the risk of making Greg burst out laughing, I think this is exactly
>> what the Fedora Project needs, a Nant'an in each sub-community of
>> Fedora who sets a proper tone and is followed because of his example,
>> not because he has any authority.
>
> We do have quite a few people setting great examples out there. Both
> Mr. Fenzi and Mr. Dieter are probably tired of being pointed out as
> examples, but well... there you have it. ;-) *And they've each been
> operating that way for years now, which is a good reason why this
> issue should be taken seriously.

I agree with that 100% and I agree with Kevin's suggestion recently on
his blog where he called for others to join him in trying to set a
positive tone shifting those who don't to the fringe.

>>> I do think we should be carefull here not to empower this group with
>>> all kinds of punishment ability or enforcement. Negativity feeds on
>>> more Negativity.
>>
>> And this would be exactly what we don't need, a prison system run by
>> the Fedora Board or some other central authority. As soon as you add
>> the "or else" clause, enumerate powers to enforce and punish the evil
>> among us it transforms it from being a positive motivating statement
>> to being one that is based on inducing fear in the rabble. And the
>> rabble will just get more ornery.
>>
>> Over time a code of conduct can frame our expectations. But I would
>> like those expectations to be *our* expectations of our own behavior,
>> not an understanding of what *you* expect from us.

Let me expand on this a little bit below because I think my point was
too obscured to be clear with language that could easily be taken in a
way I did not intend.

> John, I'm betting my expectations aren't far different from yours, but
> I don't know for sure. Speaking as one friend and fellow community
> member to another, what are your expectations of my behavior?

I think if the Board or a working group or 10 more or less random
contributors took up this task they would arrive at very similar sets
of expectations. So let's say we have a code of conduct written in the
positive expectation manner described. I can see over time the
community internalizing that statement as its view of appropriate
conduct - a situation where it is much more likely to self-police
conduct that falls outside those expectations.

If we have exactly the same positive statement of expectations,
coupled with "or else" clauses and enforcement/punishment policies
then I think many in the community and most new people coming into the
community would view that statement as one imposed on them from a
higher authority. And in the long run I don't think that would be
internalized in the same way and it would give individual members in
the community a reason to not self-police since they would see
enforcement as someone else's responsibility.

So I encourage the first of those options, staying positive, and
looking forward to long term benefits. Doing the second of those
options might help solve short term problems but doesn't offer me the
same expectation I have of a happy self-policing community in the
future.

John
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:02 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 18:17 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Paul Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We do have quite a few people setting great examples out there. Both
> > Mr. Fenzi and Mr. Dieter are probably tired of being pointed out as
> > examples, but well... there you have it. ;-) And they've each been
> > operating that way for years now, which is a good reason why this
> > issue should be taken seriously.
>
> I agree with that 100% and I agree with Kevin's suggestion recently on
> his blog where he called for others to join him in trying to set a
> positive tone shifting those who don't to the fringe.

Here's the thing I really like about Kevin's blog suggestion [1] versus
a formalized code of conduct: Kevin's suggestion involves ACTION. Not
rules written down on paper - er, wiki. It involves actually doing it /
living it.

Maybe rather than a list of rules on what you should not do, then, have
a little guidebook / cookbook / whatever you'd like to call it, of
common sticky situations and recommended positive ways to respond to
'em. Maybe that is technically a code of conduct - perhaps a
non-traditional spin on one, though?

Certainly I've got a temper on mailing lists at times, and I would love
a nice reference as to how I really ought to be responding rather than
let the trigger finger itch win! It might be fun to illustrate the
reference guide, [2] hehe, in a clever way so people remember the best
way to handle situations. Anyway I think Kevin's list is a great start:

* "A negative reply to someone on a mailing list: Reply to the
orig poster with the positive answer you would have liked to
have seen.
* "A poorly phrased, rude or condescending IRC reply to a
question: Reply to the orig poster with the better, positive
answer you would liked to have seen.
* "A post on the planet feed you find offensive, in poor taste or
disagree with: Post your own blog post with a positive reply.
How could this have been better? Whats something related that’s
good?
* "A bugzilla bug with a rude or curt or bad reply on it. Add a
comment with the correct answer phrased in a nice positive way."

One situation I wanna know what to do in is, 'oops, your trigger finger
slipped, you were a jerk and you know it, now what?'

Anyway, how to get people to follow the suggestions, though? If x
mailing list is known for trouble, do we try to get a couple of 'good
karma planters' on the list? Maybe it's a better way than posing them as
hall monitors / enforcers? Or maybe - get folks to volunteer to sign a
pledge or something to do x number of good karma things in their
community interactions per week or something like that? Have some kind
of good karma drive during one particular month? Person who did the most
good karma things gets some cool recognition/prize?

I just like the notion of building up a nicer culture rather than
condemning the bad culture. Although boy does the bad piss me off at
times

~m

[1]
http://scrye.com/wordpress-mu/nirik/2010/06/30/accentuate-the-positive/

[2] http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed



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Old 07-08-2010, 05:41 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default fedora community working group

On 07/08/2010 01:02 PM, Mirn Duffy wrote:
> One situation I wanna know what to do in is, 'oops, your trigger finger
> slipped, you were a jerk and you know it, now what?'
>
Apologize, immediately (if you can). As in "I'm sorry I said 'That's
BS....'. But, that can be hard to do at times. :-)
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 11:16:39 -0400
"Paul W. Frields" <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin + Rex, sorry for letting this thread sit.

Not at all. I have been busy and have let this reply sit.

> I know I'm speaking somewhat as a "lame duck" FPL here :-) but before
> I'd expect any community members to buy into a code of conduct, they'd
> likely want to know (1) what problems the code is intended to solve,
> (2) how the code affects people who violate it repeatedly, and (3) how
> we tell whether it works or not.
>
> I completely agree that we can't battle negativity with more
> negativity. On the other hand, a code of conduct can't be effective
> if it's not enforced in some fashion. Case in point, the KDE
> community group does take remedial action in incremental steps,
> starting with mediation and discussion. In cases of repeat
> infractions or escalation, they progress to suspension in some cases.
>
> There have been previous discussions about a code of conduct here and
> the consensus at the time seemed to be that community members would
> continue to follow it (or not) as they have in the past, whether it
> was formalized or not. And ISTR that some community members were
> concerned that laying out rules of proper conduct would create
> opportunities for unproductive language-lawyering. At the same time,
> there are certainly problems with the "we know it when we see it"
> approach.
>
> What happens, in both your views, if someone repeatedly violates a
> code of conduct?

Well, I suppose it would have to be a escalating scale:

- Warn in private.
- Warn in public.
...
- Remove privileges or access where they are in charge and violating
...
- Ban or remove from areas where they are violating (moderate on list,
ban from irc channel, etc).

Note that it's almost impossible to really remove someone, they can
come back with another email address, another irc nick, or whatever.

I agree you can't always just be positive, as much as I would prefer
that to be the case. ;(

kevin
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