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Old 07-07-2010, 03:56 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 10:57 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> On 07/07/2010 10:47 AM, seth vidal wrote:
>
> > I have to ask this: Do you honestly believe that the poisonous people we
> > have in our community don't understand that what they are doing is
> > harmful?
>
> Well, this proposal goes beyond just dealing with poisonous individuals.
> But, I do believe by having an entity to help guide and enforce a coc,
> it will be empower us to better equipped to deal with such cases
> effectively (via intervention, sanctioning, etc...).
>

To be clear - we tried to have some intervention in the form of the hall
monitors. all we got in return was everyone second-guessing the hall
monitors and cries of censorship.

Why do you think any other system is going to fair better?

-sv



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Old 07-07-2010, 03:57 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default fedora community working group

On 07/07/2010 10:47 AM, seth vidal wrote:

> I have to ask this: Do you honestly believe that the poisonous people we
> have in our community don't understand that what they are doing is
> harmful?

Well, this proposal goes beyond just dealing with poisonous individuals.
But, I do believe by having an entity to help guide and enforce a coc,
it will be empower us to better equipped to deal with such cases
effectively (via intervention, sanctioning, etc...).

-- Rex
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:00 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 11:01 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> On 07/07/2010 10:56 AM, seth vidal wrote:
>
> >
> > To be clear - we tried to have some intervention in the form of the hall
> > monitors. all we got in return was everyone second-guessing the hall
> > monitors and cries of censorship.
> >
> > Why do you think any other system is going to fair better?
>
> IMO, the previous policy was poor and enforcement was unclear.
>

And you believe the current proposal is going to be more clear and the
board will be more likely to enforce things? B/c I don't.

I think what's going to happen is that any attempts at enforcement will
be language-lawyered by the trolls and then appealed to the board and
the board, will, of course, waffle on it and be unwilling to support the
enforcement for fear of losing contributors.


-sv


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Old 07-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Rex Dieter
 
Default fedora community working group

On 07/07/2010 10:56 AM, seth vidal wrote:

>
> To be clear - we tried to have some intervention in the form of the hall
> monitors. all we got in return was everyone second-guessing the hall
> monitors and cries of censorship.
>
> Why do you think any other system is going to fair better?

IMO, the previous policy was poor and enforcement was unclear.

-- Rex
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:41 PM
Josh Boyer
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:00:32PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 11:01 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>> On 07/07/2010 10:56 AM, seth vidal wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > To be clear - we tried to have some intervention in the form of the hall
>> > monitors. all we got in return was everyone second-guessing the hall
>> > monitors and cries of censorship.
>> >
>> > Why do you think any other system is going to fair better?
>>
>> IMO, the previous policy was poor and enforcement was unclear.
>>
>
>And you believe the current proposal is going to be more clear and the
>board will be more likely to enforce things? B/c I don't.
>
>I think what's going to happen is that any attempts at enforcement will
>be language-lawyered by the trolls and then appealed to the board and
>the board, will, of course, waffle on it and be unwilling to support the
>enforcement for fear of losing contributors.

They'll lose them either way. It's a matter of balancing which way is going
to lose fewer.

josh
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:44 PM
seth vidal
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 12:41 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:00:32PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> >On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 11:01 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> >> On 07/07/2010 10:56 AM, seth vidal wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > To be clear - we tried to have some intervention in the form of the hall
> >> > monitors. all we got in return was everyone second-guessing the hall
> >> > monitors and cries of censorship.
> >> >
> >> > Why do you think any other system is going to fair better?
> >>
> >> IMO, the previous policy was poor and enforcement was unclear.
> >>
> >
> >And you believe the current proposal is going to be more clear and the
> >board will be more likely to enforce things? B/c I don't.
> >
> >I think what's going to happen is that any attempts at enforcement will
> >be language-lawyered by the trolls and then appealed to the board and
> >the board, will, of course, waffle on it and be unwilling to support the
> >enforcement for fear of losing contributors.
>
> They'll lose them either way. It's a matter of balancing which way is going
> to lose fewer.
>

Agreed.

-sv


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Old 07-07-2010, 05:22 PM
David Nalley
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:47 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I have to ask this: Do you honestly believe that the poisonous people we
> have in our community don't understand that what they are doing is
> harmful? Are we to believe that they've never been in common human
> society before, that fedora was their first introduction to
> working/interacting with others?
>
> I'm sorry, I don't think that's the case, they are not 'babes in the
> woods'. They are toxic and a CoC is not gonna cut it, IMO.
>
> -sv

In short I'd say yes. I think that there are, in addition to $just_bad
that there are two other classes of people that a code of conduct
would be beneficial for:
1. people who believe themselves to be trying to 'preserve' $foo about
the Fedora, and feel a need to protect the project from itself at any
means. Admittedly, I don't think that this will help the current batch
- as they would likely see this as lacking legitimacy, but in a year
or so perhaps it would.

2. people, particularly those people who are relatively new, who come
into the community with a different set of expectations around what's
acceptable, because they came from wherever and bad behavior was
acceptable there.

I don't think it's a panacea. I do think, however, that our method of
passing the culture and expectations around isn't scalable as we
continue to grow, and we honestly probably passed the point it was a
good while back.

David
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:09 PM
inode0
 
Default fedora community working group

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@tummy.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:56 -0500
> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
>
>> On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
>> suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a
>> couple of years ago to help deal with similar issues. *I propose
>> creating something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working
>> group', http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
>>
>> I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
>> feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear
>> contact person/group to go to in cases where they experience any
>> non-excellent behavior.
>>
>> Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time
>> to consider doing better, so...
>
> I like this as a possibly way to find areas of Fedora where our
> community isn't as welcoming as we all would like and have people that
> can join in and provide positive info and answers (ignoring or letting
> the unwelcoming people drift off to the fringe).

At the risk of making Greg burst out laughing, I think this is exactly
what the Fedora Project needs, a Nant'an in each sub-community of
Fedora who sets a proper tone and is followed because of his example,
not because he has any authority.

> I do think we should be carefull here not to empower this group with
> all kinds of punishment ability or enforcement. Negativity feeds on
> more Negativity.

And this would be exactly what we don't need, a prison system run by
the Fedora Board or some other central authority. As soon as you add
the "or else" clause, enumerate powers to enforce and punish the evil
among us it transforms it from being a positive motivating statement
to being one that is based on inducing fear in the rabble. And the
rabble will just get more ornery.

Over time a code of conduct can frame our expectations. But I would
like those expectations to be *our* expectations of our own behavior,
not an understanding of what *you* expect from us.

John
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:38 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 10:46 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>> On 07/07/2010 10:16 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>>
>> > I'm still not sold on a code per se,
>>
>> At the risk of being repetitive, let me go into more why I firmly
>> believe we need this badly. *I'd like to think that many(some?) of those
>> folks that can be coerced/taught to be community-friendly simply do not
>> know what they are doing is wrong/bad, and have no clear understanding
>> of that is expected of them.
>>
>> Yes, this could be seen as largely common-sense by some, but when it
>> comes to large communities comprised of many different cultures whose
>> primary communication channels are not face-to-face, it's often far from
>> obvious.
>>
>
> I have to ask this: Do you honestly believe that the poisonous people we
> have in our community don't understand that what they are doing is
> harmful? Are we to believe that they've never been in common human
> society before, that fedora was their first introduction to
> working/interacting with others?

>From general statistics of narcism in human populations etc, for ~5 of
them , they are not going to see what they do as harmful, and in the
end the only thing will be to exclude them . For the others I doubt
they are realize it or know what or how they are doing things are not
working. Having spent a lot of time lately with asperger's, a lot of
actions seem completely logical and came from good intentions but had
no idea on the effect it would have.

Nor do even most neuro-typical people understand that minority views
dealt with in face-to-face meetings get completely different human
reactions than in email exchanges..

> I'm sorry, I don't think that's the case, they are not 'babes in the
> woods'. They are toxic and a CoC is not gonna cut it, IMO.

Laws never stop crimes. However hanging people never seemed to stop
others from doing it later either. [To extend your wild-west analogy.]

A Code of Conduct or a Bill of Rights, are just words on paper or
things that a community uses to define itself. Depending on if "Broken
Window" social theory is correct.. (and its a big if I realize) little
things like Codes of Conduct if taken seriously mean a lot more to
temper out things than larger issues.

> -sv
>
>
>
>
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> advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
>



--
Stephen J Smoogen.
“The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance.”
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"We have a strategic plan. It's called doing things.""
— Herb Kelleher, founder Southwest Airlines
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Paul Frields
 
Default fedora community working group

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:09 PM, inode0 <inode0@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@tummy.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:56 -0500
>> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On the open question of how to discourage/prevent poisonous <foo>, I
>>> suggest doing something similar as was done in the kde project a
>>> couple of years ago to help deal with similar issues. *I propose
>>> creating something in fedora akin to the 'kde community working
>>> group', http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php
>>>
>>> I consider it vitally important that everyone in the fedora community
>>> feel safe, know fedora supports them, and that there be a clear
>>> contact person/group to go to in cases where they experience any
>>> non-excellent behavior.
>>>
>>> Now, being excellent has taken us quite a ways, but I think it's time
>>> to consider doing better, so...
>>
>> I like this as a possibly way to find areas of Fedora where our
>> community isn't as welcoming as we all would like and have people that
>> can join in and provide positive info and answers (ignoring or letting
>> the unwelcoming people drift off to the fringe).
>
> At the risk of making Greg burst out laughing, I think this is exactly
> what the Fedora Project needs, a Nant'an in each sub-community of
> Fedora who sets a proper tone and is followed because of his example,
> not because he has any authority.

We do have quite a few people setting great examples out there. Both
Mr. Fenzi and Mr. Dieter are probably tired of being pointed out as
examples, but well... there you have it. ;-) And they've each been
operating that way for years now, which is a good reason why this
issue should be taken seriously.

>> I do think we should be carefull here not to empower this group with
>> all kinds of punishment ability or enforcement. Negativity feeds on
>> more Negativity.
>
> And this would be exactly what we don't need, a prison system run by
> the Fedora Board or some other central authority. As soon as you add
> the "or else" clause, enumerate powers to enforce and punish the evil
> among us it transforms it from being a positive motivating statement
> to being one that is based on inducing fear in the rabble. And the
> rabble will just get more ornery.
>
> Over time a code of conduct can frame our expectations. But I would
> like those expectations to be *our* expectations of our own behavior,
> not an understanding of what *you* expect from us.

John, I'm betting my expectations aren't far different from yours, but
I don't know for sure. Speaking as one friend and fellow community
member to another, what are your expectations of my behavior?

Paul
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