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Old 06-19-2010, 06:39 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 05:15:40PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 14:00 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> > I think it's overkill - but that's just my opinion, of course. What
> > is our percentage rate or rate of "incidents?" If we were having one
> > a day, or one a week, I think that would be one thing. And despite
> > any guidelines we have, or boxes people need to check - mistakes will
> > be made, and I'd venture to guess those mistakes would occur at
> > approximately the same rate that "incidents" currently do.
>
> Sure, but the problem with letting things be / the status quo is that we
> have no system or procedure in place to handle the mistakes. And when
> someone posts something to planet, it's up for all the world to see
> pretty much in minutes. In some cases, say, the one where Ms. Liu's
> assets were splayed for all to see.... you really want to get that
> content down as soon as you can.
>
> - Personally writing the person (who may be in another timezone and
> asleep by the time you write them) and pursuing the issue that way won't
> necessarily resolve the problem in a timely manner.
>
> - Taking it to the Board seems overkill, and a potential waste of their
> time.
>
> - Approaching one of our awesome sysadmins and asking them to take it
> down is problematic as well, because they have no guidelines against
> which to make a judgment call.
>
> In the case of Ms. Liu and her bikini, that incident actually happened
> during FUDcon Toronto so IIRC we talked to Smooge & Mike about taking it
> down, and they said they didn't feel comfortable making the judgment
> call and would rather a Board OK to do it, so I talked to Paul and some
> other board members and got an okay. It took maybe 45 minutes from
> spotting it to getting it delisted - in-person. It might take hours
> remotely.

Immediately after that particular case, we added this to our Planet
page:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material

We put this page up to make it easier for sysadmins to remove
inappropriate material quickly. Since then I don't believe we've had
a recurrence of inappropriate material (as set out on that page). Are
there additional categories that should be covered there?

Today I added a more prominent link to the [[Join Fedora Planet]] page
to provide more information on guidelines before a community member
sets up an RSS feed for the planet.

I'm not implying these wiki pages magically solve all concerns in this
thread. My question, I guess, is have these changes helped the
sysadmins? Or have they not even had the need to rely on them since
FUDCon?

I have nothing against multiple planet feeds with different degrees of
specificity. I think the one that represents the Fedora Project by
default should really be the most Fedora-centric, in terms of content.
But I also think it should help readers expand their view of the
community as well.

Earlier I remember Mike McGrath had talked about some of the issues we
had in "growth without scaling" as it pertained to FAS groups.
Because we have a very self-service group joining system, we have lots
of new FAS account holders joining groups with no context around them,
or any idea what they mean, or whether they even need to be in them.
As a result, there are "join queues" which have a very low signal to
noise ratio, and it's hard to figure out as a sponsor on which to take
action. We certainly want new contributors to be able to join (and be
approved for) groups easily, but the suggestion was made by someone
that invitation groups by default make more sense.

Does this idea work at all for the Planet? In other words, what if
there were a firehose feed that anyone can join (like getting a FAS
account and agreeing to the CLA/FPCA), and then be promoted to the
official Planet by simply having on-topic content? And could that
decision be made in a way that is equitable, scalable, community
owned, and which encourages great material on the Planet, without
being too cliquish?

--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 14:39:54 -0400,
"Paul W. Frields" <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Earlier I remember Mike McGrath had talked about some of the issues we
> had in "growth without scaling" as it pertained to FAS groups.
> Because we have a very self-service group joining system, we have lots
> of new FAS account holders joining groups with no context around them,
> or any idea what they mean, or whether they even need to be in them.
> As a result, there are "join queues" which have a very low signal to
> noise ratio, and it's hard to figure out as a sponsor on which to take
> action. We certainly want new contributors to be able to join (and be
> approved for) groups easily, but the suggestion was made by someone
> that invitation groups by default make more sense.

I think that most group memberships should be by invitation.
Whenever I request group membership or package co-maintainer status using
the self service pages, I always send an email message to what I think
the correct people or list is explaining my request. This gives them
more context and I think makes it easier to explain why a request was denied
in the cases where that is appropriate.
I could just as easily send the email message asking for membership and
not do the self service part. I'd just have to make sure to include my
fas account name in the message.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:10 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 14:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Immediately after that particular case, we added this to our Planet
> page:
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material
>
> We put this page up to make it easier for sysadmins to remove
> inappropriate material quickly. Since then I don't believe we've had
> a recurrence of inappropriate material (as set out on that page). Are
> there additional categories that should be covered there?

On a funny-sad note, technically, in those guidelines wouldn't the logo
of another distro and the Fedora logo itself violate the copyright
clause?

That being said, those guidelines are good; they don't address the issue
I had with the particular post I (still, stubbornly) take issue with,
but it definitely would have been helpful to know #fedora-websites was
the place to go - I would have messaged folks there rather than starting
this thread of doom.

I do think some guideline saying - hey, this is planet Fedora, you can
post about non-Fedora stuff but it you don't post about Fedora or
consistently promote other distros you should really rethink listing
yourself here? [1]

If there was some kind of mission statement as to what Planet Fedora's
purpose was:

"Planet Fedora is a aggregation of blogs from world wide Fedora
contributors at http://planet.fedoraproject.org"

This doesn't really help me understand what's appropriate and what's
not, or the real purpose. Something more like this gets more at the
purpose I think?:

"Planet Fedora is a distributed communication tool that many Fedora
contributors rely on to keep a pulse on Fedora's community. Contributors
connect their blogs to Planet Fedora to express to the Fedora community
their thoughts and personality and share what they are working on
through blog posts."

> Today I added a more prominent link to the [[Join Fedora Planet]] page
> to provide more information on guidelines before a community member
> sets up an RSS feed for the planet.

As a Planet reader though how would I find these pages? Neither are
linked to anywhere from there as far as I can tell... would it be okay
to add links?

> I have nothing against multiple planet feeds with different degrees of
> specificity. I think the one that represents the Fedora Project by
> default should really be the most Fedora-centric, in terms of content.
> But I also think it should help readers expand their view of the
> community as well.

We could do this in other ways though. For example, link to the person's
wiki profile when you click on their hackergotchi. Have a little map (if
they provided their geolocation in FAS) of where in the world they are
from next to their hackergotchi. There are a lot of ways to do this that
don't require non-Fedora posts.

I'll be frank in saying I have way more to read than I ever possibly
could. I feel very strongly that I need to read and participate in
Fedora planet in order to effectively get my job done, so just ignoring
it and shutting it out is not even an option. I guess it's time to start
using a filter somehow

> Earlier I remember Mike McGrath had talked about some of the issues we
> had in "growth without scaling" as it pertained to FAS groups.
> Because we have a very self-service group joining system, we have lots
> of new FAS account holders joining groups with no context around them,
> or any idea what they mean, or whether they even need to be in them.
> As a result, there are "join queues" which have a very low signal to
> noise ratio, and it's hard to figure out as a sponsor on which to take
> action. We certainly want new contributors to be able to join (and be
> approved for) groups easily, but the suggestion was made by someone
> that invitation groups by default make more sense.
>
> Does this idea work at all for the Planet? In other words, what if
> there were a firehose feed that anyone can join (like getting a FAS
> account and agreeing to the CLA/FPCA), and then be promoted to the
> official Planet by simply having on-topic content? And could that
> decision be made in a way that is equitable, scalable, community
> owned, and which encourages great material on the Planet, without
> being too cliquish?

I think this is an excellent idea.

~m

[1] There are plenty of FLOSS blog aggregators out there that aggregate
the various distro planets together. We don't really need to do it on
our own. Yes, we're a free software project, yes other free software
distros are free software, but I know where planet.otherdistro is.
Talking about some joint work with another distro seems cool, or working
with other people from that distro seems cool - actively promoting that
distro to me feels very wrong.

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Old 06-21-2010, 06:52 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On 06/18/2010 10:16 PM, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
>
> #3: I think the reasons for doing so are just entirely too
> big-brotherish. Seriously: We've had issues in the past where people
> have posted questionable content - and I'll just say Nicu, because I'm
> sure he's reading this (HI NICU!) and there's no point in being
> subtle, and I think that's the scenario most people are thinking of.
> Now, I happen to enjoy Nicu's photos and content and I actively go out
> out of my way to read his non-planet postings - which are non-planet
> because someone -just talked- to him. As a -Friend- would.

Yes, reading it but replying a bit slower over the week-end

Actually I went the extra-mile and moved my photography posts to a
different blog, to have complete freedom and don't be bothered about
what some or other people think is politically correct.

Actually very recently I had some highly controversial content (Fedora
related) which I was tempted to put on planet, it would have generated a
flamewar probably much bigger than this, and asked for advice from
friends in the community. The feedback was split, some said "do it",
some said "don't do", so my choice was to not post it directly and sneak
on the back door.

The truth is, I have some content which is NOT posted yet on the other
blog either, but not because I am scared by the controversy, but because
I didn't find yet a way to harmonize *that* type of content with a Free
license.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:32 AM
sankarshan
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

2010/6/19 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:

[snip]

> But I was referring to the thread as a whole, not the original post:
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008481.html
>
> "It's not clear this person has contributed to Fedora in any way. He
> just added himself to our planet this week and has been an account
> holder for less than a month. His hugeass ubuntu logo is accompanied by
> a form for some ubuntu product that asks a lot of personal information.

As far as I can recall, for a blog to be syndicated on the Planet a
couple of things need to happen:

- person needs to have a FAS account
- person needs to have a fedorapeople account for the .planet file

While the former is click-through, the latter requires the sign-off
from a group sponsor. Is it possible to figure out as to whether the
sponsor might want to put a nice word about the inappropriate-ness of
the graphic ?


--
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:28 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On 06/21/2010 09:52 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 06/18/2010 10:16 PM, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
>>
>> #3: I think the reasons for doing so are just entirely too
>> big-brotherish. Seriously: We've had issues in the past where people
>> have posted questionable content - and I'll just say Nicu, because I'm
>> sure he's reading this (HI NICU!) and there's no point in being
>> subtle, and I think that's the scenario most people are thinking of.
>> Now, I happen to enjoy Nicu's photos and content and I actively go out
>> out of my way to read his non-planet postings - which are non-planet
>> because someone -just talked- to him. As a -Friend- would.
>
> Actually I went the extra-mile and moved my photography posts to a
> different blog, to have complete freedom and don't be bothered about
> what some or other people think is politically correct.

Oh, I think it will be useful for me to share a bit more about my
self-censoring: after the "upskirt incident" I didn't care about flames,
about people insulting me, trying to google bomb me or being listed on
hate sites - from those I got traffic, page rand and a few AdSense
dollars, what really did matter for me were the reactions of 3 people in
the community I have respect for (no names given, hope they recognize
themselves):
- someone *friendly* adviced me in a *private* message to not publish
again such type of content;
- someone else, also in a private message, told me to not put at hearth
all the flames;
- someone from whom I didn't expected to, came to some degree publicly
in my defense, albeit on some technicality.

So my take is: don't get aggressive on this new guy, or anyone else, be
friendly, we want to grow him in a full contributor, not alienate him.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:55 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 05:10:31PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 14:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > Immediately after that particular case, we added this to our Planet
> > page:
> >
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material
> >
> > We put this page up to make it easier for sysadmins to remove
> > inappropriate material quickly. Since then I don't believe we've had
> > a recurrence of inappropriate material (as set out on that page). Are
> > there additional categories that should be covered there?
>
> On a funny-sad note, technically, in those guidelines wouldn't the logo
> of another distro and the Fedora logo itself violate the copyright
> clause?

If you mean, in this case was the Planet in violation of the trademark
guidelines, the answer is no. AIUI (IANAL, etc.) a violation would be
premised on an appearance of some sort of commercial link. In the
case of the Planet, it's clear that the material on the page is a
collection of community members' contributions. So it would be hard
to make the case for a genuine TM violation.

> That being said, those guidelines are good; they don't address the issue
> I had with the particular post I (still, stubbornly) take issue with,
> but it definitely would have been helpful to know #fedora-websites was
> the place to go - I would have messaged folks there rather than starting
> this thread of doom.
>
> I do think some guideline saying - hey, this is planet Fedora, you can
> post about non-Fedora stuff but it you don't post about Fedora or
> consistently promote other distros you should really rethink listing
> yourself here? [1]
>
> If there was some kind of mission statement as to what Planet Fedora's
> purpose was:
>
> "Planet Fedora is a aggregation of blogs from world wide Fedora
> contributors at http://planet.fedoraproject.org"
>
> This doesn't really help me understand what's appropriate and what's
> not, or the real purpose. Something more like this gets more at the
> purpose I think?:
>
> "Planet Fedora is a distributed communication tool that many Fedora
> contributors rely on to keep a pulse on Fedora's community. Contributors
> connect their blogs to Planet Fedora to express to the Fedora community
> their thoughts and personality and share what they are working on
> through blog posts."

I like that description and wouldn't mind including it. If people
agree we should have additional feeds containing broader topical
content, in addition to a more focused Fedora-centric one, I'd want to
add that to the description as well.

> > Today I added a more prominent link to the [[Join Fedora Planet]] page
> > to provide more information on guidelines before a community member
> > sets up an RSS feed for the planet.
>
> As a Planet reader though how would I find these pages? Neither are
> linked to anywhere from there as far as I can tell... would it be okay
> to add links?

Sure. On the planet.fedoraproject.org page, if you click on "Add your
blog" on the left, you visit the [[Join Fedora Planet]] wiki page
mentioned above.

> > I have nothing against multiple planet feeds with different degrees of
> > specificity. I think the one that represents the Fedora Project by
> > default should really be the most Fedora-centric, in terms of content.
> > But I also think it should help readers expand their view of the
> > community as well.
>
> We could do this in other ways though. For example, link to the person's
> wiki profile when you click on their hackergotchi. Have a little map (if
> they provided their geolocation in FAS) of where in the world they are
> from next to their hackergotchi. There are a lot of ways to do this that
> don't require non-Fedora posts.
>
> I'll be frank in saying I have way more to read than I ever possibly
> could. I feel very strongly that I need to read and participate in
> Fedora planet in order to effectively get my job done, so just ignoring
> it and shutting it out is not even an option. I guess it's time to start
> using a filter somehow

You and I are in the same boat. :-) In my RSS reader I can't ever seem
to read everything that goes on. And it's easy to get behind after
just a day or two, especially because I'm also subscribed to other
planets like Ubuntu, openSUSE, GNOME, and so forth. I tend to skim
titles and then dig in where I see something that looks interesting or
important.

> > Earlier I remember Mike McGrath had talked about some of the issues we
> > had in "growth without scaling" as it pertained to FAS groups.
> > Because we have a very self-service group joining system, we have lots
> > of new FAS account holders joining groups with no context around them,
> > or any idea what they mean, or whether they even need to be in them.
> > As a result, there are "join queues" which have a very low signal to
> > noise ratio, and it's hard to figure out as a sponsor on which to take
> > action. We certainly want new contributors to be able to join (and be
> > approved for) groups easily, but the suggestion was made by someone
> > that invitation groups by default make more sense.
> >
> > Does this idea work at all for the Planet? In other words, what if
> > there were a firehose feed that anyone can join (like getting a FAS
> > account and agreeing to the CLA/FPCA), and then be promoted to the
> > official Planet by simply having on-topic content? And could that
> > decision be made in a way that is equitable, scalable, community
> > owned, and which encourages great material on the Planet, without
> > being too cliquish?
>
> I think this is an excellent idea.
>
> ~m
>
> [1] There are plenty of FLOSS blog aggregators out there that aggregate
> the various distro planets together. We don't really need to do it on
> our own. Yes, we're a free software project, yes other free software
> distros are free software, but I know where planet.otherdistro is.
> Talking about some joint work with another distro seems cool, or working
> with other people from that distro seems cool - actively promoting that
> distro to me feels very wrong.

It seems a bit out of place on our Planet, although far from a rampant
problem at this point. I'm certain we have people in the Fedora
community who are active in many different places, and that's not only
to be expected but is perfectly laudable. Each distro has appropriate
places to talk about work or information that's specific to that
distro. I think our immediate goal should be to build more context
around the Planet, giving people more complete and understandable
information about how they can populate it with cool and appropriate
content.


--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
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