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Old 06-18-2010, 07:27 PM
Clint Savage
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

this guy is my buddy btw

> I'd like to add that currently, on the front page of ubuntu's planet,
> RIGHT NOW, is this highly detailed blog post. *Do you think this same
> conversation is going on in parallel elsewhere?
> http://pthree.org/2010/06/17/using-symantec-netbackp-with-a-fedora-12-live-cd/

Cheers,

Clint
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:35 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 12:16 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> I don't happen to think that ubuntu content on our blog is a problem.
> Particularly if the same people are posting Fedora content there - or
> Debian folks are posting content to all three places - then it becomes
> a feature, rather than a problem. I'm not a fan of being known as "the
> distro that won't let you talk about other distros," or essentially,
> the distro that relegates all non-distro related content to a sub-blog
> that nobody ever reads.

The problem isn't just that it's an ubuntu post. But it seems no matter
how many times I say this in the thread it's ignored.

~m

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Old 06-18-2010, 07:42 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 03:35:01PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 12:16 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> > I don't happen to think that ubuntu content on our blog is a problem.
> > Particularly if the same people are posting Fedora content there - or
> > Debian folks are posting content to all three places - then it becomes
> > a feature, rather than a problem. I'm not a fan of being known as "the
> > distro that won't let you talk about other distros," or essentially,
> > the distro that relegates all non-distro related content to a sub-blog
> > that nobody ever reads.
>
> The problem isn't just that it's an ubuntu post. But it seems no matter
> how many times I say this in the thread it's ignored.

We want to encourage sharing wherever it happens, I don't think Mo
meant to imply otherwise. More of a problem for me was not being able
to read the post to get any context around whatever the poster was
trying to say.

--
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:04 PM
Robyn Bergeron
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 12:16 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
>> I don't happen to think that ubuntu content on our blog is a problem.
>> Particularly if the same people are posting Fedora content there - or
>> Debian folks are posting content to all three places - then it becomes
>> a feature, rather than a problem. I'm not a fan of being known as "the
>> distro that won't let you talk about other distros," or essentially,
>> the distro that relegates all non-distro related content to a sub-blog
>> that nobody ever reads.
>
> The problem isn't just that it's an ubuntu post. But it seems no matter
> how many times I say this in the thread it's ignored.
>

Your mail which kicked off the original thread said this:

"http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/

Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
Planet Fedora?

~m"

So the problem is.... 400x400.... logos? Really?

I've seen a lot of really poorly-formatted, obnoxiously-sized images
(even to my clearly non-designer eyeballs) on planet.fp.o in the past.
Nobody has ever commented on any of those on the board mailing list,
nor have those blog posts ever resulted in a mailing-list discussion
about filtering -content-.

Maybe people jumped on the ubuntu angle rather than the 400x400 bit
and should not have. Also, I understand that you are saying some
guidelines would be nice. If we want to have guidelines relating to
artistic quality and so forth, then, I wish you luck enforcing those
posts. If we want to have loose guidelines saying, "be excellent,
don't post porn pictures, and try to refrain from cursing in 48-point
font," then I think that's acceptable as well. If we want to have
guidelines saying "we can only talk about Fedora stuff here," and
turning the main planet page into a Fedora-only place, taking away the
community element, and relegate all Non-Fedora stuff to a page that
nobody visits, I think that is very, very problematic. And that is
precisely where this thread has gone.
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:17 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 13:04 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> 2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> > The problem isn't just that it's an ubuntu post. But it seems no matter
> > how many times I say this in the thread it's ignored.

> So the problem is.... 400x400.... logos? Really?

Is the sarcasm really necessary, Robyn?

I do find a 400x400 Ubuntu logo on Planet Fedora rather obnoxious, yes.
But I was referring to the thread as a whole, not the original post:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008481.html

"It's not clear this person has contributed to Fedora in any way. He
just added himself to our planet this week and has been an account
holder for less than a month. His hugeass ubuntu logo is accompanied by
a form for some ubuntu product that asks a lot of personal information.

"This isn't, say, a GNOME hacker working on an Ubuntu issue and who also
happens to be on Planet Fedora - which we've seen quite a lot of on our
planet and about which I could care less."

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008484.html

"First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it
appears to be a commercial page looking to grab a lot of detailed
personal information about people before offering anything of use."

> If we want to have
> guidelines saying "we can only talk about Fedora stuff here," and
> turning the main planet page into a Fedora-only place, taking away the
> community element, and relegate all Non-Fedora stuff to a page that
> nobody visits, I think that is very, very problematic. And that is
> precisely where this thread has gone.

This has been suggested because trusting people's judgment in refraining
from posting inappropriate content is not a solution given several
incidents.

The solution I would rather have (see subject line of original thread)
is a set of guidelines, but it's extremely difficult to draw a clear
line and nobody seems to agree on what they should be or how to judge
whether or not something violates them. The easiest line to draw seems
to be fedora vs non-fedora content - so the solution Seth proposed makes
a lot of sense in that light.

~m

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Old 06-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:16:40PM -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Matt Domsch <matt@domsch.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:37:18PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> >> Hi ,
> >> *so planet.fedoraproject.org used to be title 'fedorapeople' b/c it was
> >> about the fedora people.
> >>
> >> So here's the idea:
> >>
> >> make planet.fedoraproject.org be ONLY about fedora and/or related
> >> technologies/events/etc - just enforce a fedora 'tag'.
> >>
> >> and make:
> >> planet.fedoraproject.org/people/ be the anything-goes aggregate.
> >
> > -1 from me.
> >
> > I understand the concern raised generally - we want to keep content
> > appropriate - the challenge is, this is a societal/community norms
> > discussion then. *I presume someone has contacted this particular
> > author privately already (likely his Ambassador sponsor; if not, let's
> > be sure that happens).
> >
> > For this technical proposal:
> >
> > 1) It doesn't solve the problem of inappropriate content in a
> > technical way. *Someone could just as easily put a Fedora tag on their
> > inappropriate content, and land it on both.
> >
> > 2) it creates yet-another-place for remarkably similar content, and i
> > think we're mighty spread out as it is.
> >
> > Unless we're going to start having a set of human filters on whatever
> > might get aggregated, we're going to occasionally have a problem post.
> > But in those few cases, let's try correcting the individuals involved,
> > rather than try to police it apriori.
> >
> > I do agree it would be appropriate to create a set of planet
> > guidelines and recommendations, which, if blatently and repeatedly
> > broken, may result in loss of aggregation privilages.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
>
> I think this is a highly reactionary move to a fairly innocent blog
> post that is related to another distro.
>
I agree with this statement and still like pieces of the proposal. I'll
explain more down below.

> I think this really shoots us in the collective foot in a number of ways:
>
> #1: People will not know, or not remember, to tag their Fedora-related
> articles as Fedora. Thus, a lot of really good content will get
> skipped.
>
I think this could be true. It is a potential failing of this proposal.
OTOH, I know that I sometimes hesitate to post things that are
non-technology related because there is no separate feed for Fedora as
a Community vs Fedora as a technology project planets and I know some people
only want technology posts while others want "human interest" as well.

> #2: I, like most people I would suspect, do not want to have to read 2
> different blogs to see what is going on in the Fedora community. I
> personally enjoy reading what is going on in the lives of people
> inside the community that is not Fedora-related. Getting rid of that
> - we might as well just say, we're not friends - we're only interested
> in your Fedora content. We're a community. Friends is one of our
> -foundations-. Why would we implement a policy that makes the main
> aggregate for all the Fedora community blogs send a message that is
> contrary to what we believe?
>
IIUC, you only need to read the anything goes feed.
planet.fedoraproject.org would be a strict subset (filtering by the fedora
tag) of planet.fedoraproject.org/people/.

Personally I wouldn't care which feed was the anything goes and which was
restricted to fedora-only tagged content. Maybe we do want to present hte
community side of Fedora front and center and have a link to :: "Technology
only posts" from the main page.

> #3: I think the reasons for doing so are just entirely too
> big-brotherish. Seriously: We've had issues in the past where people
> have posted questionable content - and I'll just say Nicu, because I'm
> sure he's reading this (HI NICU!) and there's no point in being
> subtle, and I think that's the scenario most people are thinking of.
> Now, I happen to enjoy Nicu's photos and content and I actively go out
> out of my way to read his non-planet postings - which are non-planet
> because someone -just talked- to him. As a -Friend- would.
>
> #4: We're considering doing this over a post that is not even
> -questionable content-. We're doing this because we don't like seeing
> an ubuntu logo on our planet feed. This sends a message that,
> basically, your content isn't welcome here because you work in
> multiple communities. Do we not think that that message is going to
> backfire terribly?
>
I'd like to echo this sentiment 100%. A post about Ubuntu on Fedora planet
is a marketing faux pas that may or may not affect people reading's decision
to work on Fedora for technical reasons that may be proved wrong by other
information (now or later). A detailed post about the things you did to
subtract points from your purity test score last night is offensive to an
audience of people who may decide not to contribute to such an immature
community at a more visceral level that's harder to counteract just via
facts or changes in the technological landscape.

> I'd like to add that currently, on the front page of ubuntu's planet,
> RIGHT NOW, is this highly detailed blog post. Do you think this same
> conversation is going on in parallel elsewhere?
> http://pthree.org/2010/06/17/using-symantec-netbackp-with-a-fedora-12-live-cd/
>
> I don't happen to think that ubuntu content on our blog is a problem.
> Particularly if the same people are posting Fedora content there - or
> Debian folks are posting content to all three places - then it becomes
> a feature, rather than a problem. I'm not a fan of being known as "the
> distro that won't let you talk about other distros," or essentially,
> the distro that relegates all non-distro related content to a sub-blog
> that nobody ever reads.
>
<nod>. I wouldn't want to be known for this either.

What I would like as an author is to be able to send posts that I feel are
appropriate for people interested in Fedora the Project, open source, and
linux to one feed and send posts that people who are interested in me
because I'm a member of the Fedora Community to another. I'd like to know
that the "technology-only" feed is a strict subset of the Community feed --
in other words, as a reader, if I subscribe to the community feed, I get all
posts from people that end up on the filtered planet(s).

Maybe what would work better is something like this:

People can set up different feeds for different planets in their .planet
files just like now. feeds can be listed that don't associate with a visible
page on planet.fedoraproject.org.

There is also a "community" feed which is an aggregate of all the feeds
listed in everyone's .planet files including the ones with no visible page.
Duplicates from different feeds are reduced to a single entry.

We set up new planets when people have new guidelines that they want to
moderate a feed with -- Only technology? Only fedora? Only summer of code?
Only gnome?

I don't know what feed would occupy the planet.fedoraproject.org page (Or
maybe having a different feed on planet.fedoraproject.org and
planet.fedorapeople.org)

This might require someone to do some coding -- I don't think we currently
have software that would take the separate feeds and dedupe the posts when
assembling a meta feed.

-Toshio
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:00 PM
Robyn Bergeron
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 13:04 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
>> 2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
>> > The problem isn't just that it's an ubuntu post. But it seems no matter
>> > how many times I say this in the thread it's ignored.
>
>> So the problem is.... 400x400.... logos? Really?
>
> Is the sarcasm really necessary, Robyn?

Well... everyone else is doing it!!

No, you're right. I'm sorry. (For the record, were I saying this to
you in person, it would likely come out much funnier than in text.)

>
> I do find a 400x400 Ubuntu logo on Planet Fedora rather obnoxious, yes.
> But I was referring to the thread as a whole, not the original post:
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008481.html
>
> "It's not clear this person has contributed to Fedora in any way. He
> just added himself to our planet this week and has been an account
> holder for less than a month. His hugeass ubuntu logo is accompanied by
> a form for some ubuntu product that asks a lot of personal information.
>
> "This isn't, say, a GNOME hacker working on an Ubuntu issue and who also
> happens to be on Planet Fedora - which we've seen quite a lot of on our
> planet and about which I could care less."
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008484.html
>
> "First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it
> appears to be a commercial page looking to grab a lot of detailed
> personal information about people before offering anything of use."
>
>> If we want to have
>> guidelines saying "we can only talk about Fedora stuff here," and
>> turning the main planet page into a Fedora-only place, taking away the
>> community element, and relegate all Non-Fedora stuff to a page that
>> nobody visits, I think that is very, very problematic. *And that is
>> precisely where this thread has gone.
>
> This has been suggested because trusting people's judgment in refraining
> from posting inappropriate content is not a solution given several
> incidents.
>
> The solution I would rather have (see subject line of original thread)
> is a set of guidelines, but it's extremely difficult to draw a clear
> line and nobody seems to agree on what they should be or how to judge
> whether or not something violates them. The easiest line to draw seems
> to be fedora vs non-fedora content - so the solution Seth proposed makes
> a lot of sense in that light.

I think it's overkill - but that's just my opinion, of course. What
is our percentage rate or rate of "incidents?" If we were having one
a day, or one a week, I think that would be one thing. And despite
any guidelines we have, or boxes people need to check - mistakes will
be made, and I'd venture to guess those mistakes would occur at
approximately the same rate that "incidents" currently do. Worse, the
mistake would probably be made more often such that people would
forget to tag really good content with the Fedora tag. So what do we
gain? We have a main page, per the original proposal, that has far
less content, probably content missed because people aren't
remembering to tag things, and a separate page highlighting non-Fedora
things that community members are writing about - some of which are
VERY interesting, and really, make us feel more like a community than
a bunch of Fedora-writing-robots- which just winds up getting not read
anywhere near as much as they would as if, say, things stayed as they
are currently?

-robyn
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:15 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 14:00 -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> I think it's overkill - but that's just my opinion, of course. What
> is our percentage rate or rate of "incidents?" If we were having one
> a day, or one a week, I think that would be one thing. And despite
> any guidelines we have, or boxes people need to check - mistakes will
> be made, and I'd venture to guess those mistakes would occur at
> approximately the same rate that "incidents" currently do.

Sure, but the problem with letting things be / the status quo is that we
have no system or procedure in place to handle the mistakes. And when
someone posts something to planet, it's up for all the world to see
pretty much in minutes. In some cases, say, the one where Ms. Liu's
assets were splayed for all to see.... you really want to get that
content down as soon as you can.

- Personally writing the person (who may be in another timezone and
asleep by the time you write them) and pursuing the issue that way won't
necessarily resolve the problem in a timely manner.

- Taking it to the Board seems overkill, and a potential waste of their
time.

- Approaching one of our awesome sysadmins and asking them to take it
down is problematic as well, because they have no guidelines against
which to make a judgment call.

In the case of Ms. Liu and her bikini, that incident actually happened
during FUDcon Toronto so IIRC we talked to Smooge & Mike about taking it
down, and they said they didn't feel comfortable making the judgment
call and would rather a Board OK to do it, so I talked to Paul and some
other board members and got an okay. It took maybe 45 minutes from
spotting it to getting it delisted - in-person. It might take hours
remotely.

> Worse, the
> mistake would probably be made more often such that people would
> forget to tag really good content with the Fedora tag. So what do we
> gain? We have a main page, per the original proposal, that has far
> less content, probably content missed because people aren't
> remembering to tag things, and a separate page highlighting non-Fedora
> things that community members are writing about - some of which are
> VERY interesting, and really, make us feel more like a community than
> a bunch of Fedora-writing-robots- which just winds up getting not read
> anywhere near as much as they would as if, say, things stayed as they
> are currently?

Honestly, I'd rather have a planet Fedora where I can read about planet
Fedora, and maintain my own blog roll of people I care about to read
their full feed in my RSS reader. Then I could read Nicu's full feed
more easily. Yes, we are people not robots, but how does having a feed
100% relevant to Fedora make us any less people or any more robots?
Especially if we offer an easy link to the full thing?

Can you see how being a new Fedora user and going to planet Fedora could
be overwhelming and confusing? IRC channels degrade to this level easily
as well. I remember when I first heard about the linuxchix IRC channels
I went in there to hang out, but I was completely turned off because it
seemed to be more of a social clique talking about people and
relationships and events I had no clue about rather than a bunch of
women talking about Linux and how to get more women involved in Linux.
In fact, bringing up the topic of Linux had seemed to irritate people.

Obviously Planet Fedora hasn't gotten that bad but when things come off
like a clique it can also definitely turn people off.

~m

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Old 06-18-2010, 09:22 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

I think it's overkill - but that's just my opinion, of course. *

Also my opinion, that I thank you for expressing.*
*What

is our percentage rate or rate of "incidents?" *If we were having one

a day, or one a week, I think that would be one thing. *And despite

any guidelines we have, or boxes people need to check - mistakes will

be made, and I'd venture to guess those mistakes would occur at

approximately the same rate that "incidents" currently do. Worse, the

mistake would probably be made more often such that people would

forget to tag really good content with the Fedora tag. *So what do we

gain? We have a main page, per the original proposal, that has far

less content, probably content missed because people aren't

remembering to tag things, and a separate page highlighting non-Fedora

things that community members are writing about - some of which are

VERY interesting, and really, make us feel more like a community than

a bunch of Fedora-writing-robots- which just winds up getting not read

anywhere near as much as they would as if, say, things stayed as they

are currently?

+1.* This pretty much sums up my thoughts.* A policy change that is unlikely to have the "positive" effects some hope for, and may have negative effects that Robin describes.


--g

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:02 PM
Frank Murphy
 
Default proposal for the board: planet fedora != fedora people

On 18/06/10 20:42, Paul W. Frields wrote:

>
> We want to encourage sharing wherever it happens, I don't think Mo
> meant to imply otherwise. More of a problem for me was not being able
> to read the post to get any context around whatever the poster was
> trying to say.
>

Rough

--gnome translate----------

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need to fill the form our identity and we are free to download if you
need please visit the link below

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--
Regards,

Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
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