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Old 06-18-2010, 03:10 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 07:57 -0700, Luis Villa wrote:
> Seth asked about Chrome and Firefox; I think
> http://twitter.com/mozillafavs might be instructive- these are tweets
> that Mozilla employees retweet to the world from screens inside our
> office. They frequently contain positive comments about Chrome and
> negative comments about Firefox- complaints about crashes, kudos to
> our competitors, etc. That's the right response to problems like this-
> don't say 'ban them!', acknowledge and embrace the competition, and
> then ask 'why is this happening? what do we do to make ourselves
> competitive so that this doesn't happen?' While you can argue whether
> or not Mozilla is doing this effectively, I think it is hard to argue
> that it isn't a healthier long-term approach than the reflexive
> whining about Ubuntu that seems (at least to this relative outsider)
> to have permeated the Fedora culture.

I think Twitter is a little bit different than a planet. To me a planet
is a lot more representative of the project as a whole than individual
personalities. Twitter comes off as a lot more representative of the
individuals own voices. I think because not everyone understands what a
planet is, they assume some kind of editing (which some planets have) of
membership and content, like a newsletter or something.

Re: reflexive whining, I really don't give a crap about ubuntu, which is
why I don't care to read about it on my planet.

(ps Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if Mozilla used identi.ca rather than
twitter for mozillafavs?)

~m

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Old 06-18-2010, 03:17 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
>
>
> Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> Planet Fedora?

I think the best solution is to just ask the user why they think
that's appropriate for the planet...

Bill
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:32 PM
Luke Macken
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:17:54AM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
> > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
> >
> >
> > Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> > Planet Fedora?
>
> I think the best solution is to just ask the user why they think
> that's appropriate for the planet...

I think that a good solution to the higher level signal:noise problem
is to have Fedora Planet aggregate from everyones 'Fedora' blog tag, and to
have a Fedora Universe aggregator with all posts from everyone.

luke
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:36 PM
inode0
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 09:37 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> Whatever happened to the days when the planet was a place for
>> contributors to express themselves, both personally and
>> professionally, "warts and all?"
>
> At least a couple of things have happened since those days:

Seriously those days were not very long ago, I'm not talking about the
dark ages.

> - our community has gotten bigger, unwritten social rules aren't as
> easily known anymore
>
> - the privilege of being a member of the planet has been extended to
> anyone who signs up for an FAS account. From my POV, it used to be on
> many if not most planets that you had to work within the project for a
> while and become a well-known contributor before you were extended an
> invitation to be added, which was considered a sort of honor. (Obviously
> there are problems with that older model, like who gets to decide and
> when)

This was not the case when I previously raised the issue of
discouraging political rants. The planet was open to all contributors
then as it is now.

> I enjoy reading about Fedora contributors' lives outside of Fedora, and
> I don't think anyone would advocate that posts to our planet must be
> Fedora-only.
>
> That shouldn't give any one person carte blanche to post whatever they
> want, however. There are many Planet contributors who filter out
> particular posts from reaching the planet because they actually care to
> consider their audience. That kind of consideration for other people is
> a good thing.

Agreed, being considerate of others it nice. Some will do that and
some won't. It isn't a requirement, feel free to encourage it.

>> Given that the Fedora Planet is a fine place to express political
>> views about what is going on in one country or another I can't believe
>> we are now talking about policing posts that appear to actually be
>> about free software.
>
> Seth mentioned the possibility of policing the post. I think the post is
> a problem but I don't know if policing is the best way to deal with it.
>>
>> When I asked on this list about discouraging political rants on the
>> planet because it makes us all look like idiots to new readers I was
>> given the "warts and all" explanation of why that is fine. I accepted
>> that then and unless it was complete BS this doesn't bother me in the
>> least.
>
> I don't think I read that discussion - I don't remember it. It's kind of
> hard to draw a strong line. It's easy to say "Fedora posts only" but I
> don't think anyone wants that. I also think there are several valid
> cases for Ubuntu-related posts on the planet, and such posts have
> happened before without issue.

The line was pretty clearly drawn in my mind. Planet contributors can
pretty much talk about anything they please (given a few constraints).

> But how about sexualized photos of scantily-clad women? I'm not cool
> with that. Maybe some people are, but I don't want to have to stop
> reading planet Fedora because I'm afraid of what might come up. If I'm
> browsing planet Fedora during the workday and a big picture of Lucy Liu
> in a wet white bikini is on my screen, according to my office's sexual
> harassment policies, I'd be in trouble! To folks who don't work for Red
> Hat, such an incident might be reason for their work in Fedora to no
> longer be sanctioned by their employer.

If said scantily-clad women are seen every day on television, on
billboards, and in magazines I think we are overreacting. No one has
to read the planet while at work if it is a problem to do so. I don't
agree with that prohibition either to be honest given the previous
discussion I had on this list about the planet.

> To me it seems there are clearly classes of posts that aren't
> acceptable.

Sure. But an Ubuntu logo and while I can't read this particular post
it seems to be about the Ubuntu manual project and if that is what it
is about I find it hard to condemn it without knowing a lot more than
I currently know. Right now it seems quite harmless to me.

>> > Maybe we don't need policies and enforcement (I certainly think they are
>> > an annoying overhead on top of anything they are applied to), but I
>> > certainly do not want to have to tolerate this kind of crap and enable
>> > people to be less than excellent *just* for the sake of not having
>> > policies and enforcement.
>> >
>> > The person is apparently a new FAS account holder and a recent Planet
>> > Fedora addition, and just may not understand. And how would he if we
>> > don't have any guidelines written anywhere?
>>
>> He will learn the ropes by having other contributors "be excellent" to
>> him by making a stink about commenting on the Ubuntu manual project?
>
> First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it
> appears to be a commercial page looking to grab a lot of detailed
> personal information about people before offering anything of use.

No, I don't click on random links from blogs written in languages I can't read.

> Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I
> been not excellent in bringing up the issue here? Should I have kept my
> mouth shut? Is what I've written in protest really offensive or hurtful
> to the poster in question?

I hope you know by now that I *know* you are one of the most excellent
people I know.

I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about
hall monitoring, toxic and poisonous people, etc. is not only not
helping to solve any problem but is creating a harmful atmosphere of
control and intolerance that is not what the Fedora Project needs.

John
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:38 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 11:32 -0400, Luke Macken wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:17:54AM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > Máirín Duffy (duffy@fedoraproject.org) said:
> > > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> > > Planet Fedora?
> >
> > I think the best solution is to just ask the user why they think
> > that's appropriate for the planet...
>
> I think that a good solution to the higher level signal:noise problem
> is to have Fedora Planet aggregate from everyones 'Fedora' blog tag, and to
> have a Fedora Universe aggregator with all posts from everyone.
>

Writing a filter for any blog that doesn't have a fedora tag should be
relatively straightforward - but a change like that would need to be
communicated, I think.

-sv


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Old 06-18-2010, 03:41 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:36 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I
> > been not excellent in bringing up the issue here? Should I have kept my
> > mouth shut? Is what I've written in protest really offensive or hurtful
> > to the poster in question?
>
> I hope you know by now that I *know* you are one of the most excellent
> people I know.
>
> I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about
> hall monitoring, toxic and poisonous people, etc. is not only not
> helping to solve any problem but is creating a harmful atmosphere of
> control and intolerance that is not what the Fedora Project needs.

Fantastic.

So - Mo is excellent but the hall monitors and pointing out that there
are specific monsters in the fedora community is harmful to the project.

Y'all have good luck with this.

-sv




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Old 06-18-2010, 03:50 PM
Luis Villa
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> (ps Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if Mozilla used identi.ca rather than
> twitter for mozillafavs?)

Do *not* get me started on Mozilla and decentralized services. It makes me ill.

Luis
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:52 PM
inode0
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:41 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:36 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>> > Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I
>> > been not excellent in bringing up the issue here? Should I have kept my
>> > mouth shut? Is what I've written in protest really offensive or hurtful
>> > to the poster in question?
>>
>> I hope you know by now that I *know* you are one of the most excellent
>> people I know.
>>
>> I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about
>> hall monitoring, toxic and poisonous people, etc. is not only not
>> helping to solve any problem but is creating a harmful atmosphere of
>> control and intolerance that is not what the Fedora Project needs.
>
> Fantastic.
>
> So - Mo is excellent but the hall monitors and pointing out that there
> are specific monsters in the fedora community is harmful to the project.

Actually you have twisted things a bit here. The hall monitors are
excellent too although I think the hall monitoring policy is doing
more harm than good. Who has pointed out specific monsters in the
fedora community? I only see abstract talk about toxic and poisonous
people leaving the readers to wonder who all that talk is about. Yes,
I think the board acting to deal with "specific monsters in the fedora
community" would be nice, yacking about it in the abstract for months
on end isn't making this a nicer community.

John
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:05 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:52 -0500, inode0 wrote:

> Actually you have twisted things a bit here. The hall monitors are
> excellent too although I think the hall monitoring policy is doing
> more harm than good. Who has pointed out specific monsters in the
> fedora community?

I have.


> I only see abstract talk about toxic and poisonous
> people leaving the readers to wonder who all that talk is about. Yes,
> I think the board acting to deal with "specific monsters in the fedora
> community" would be nice, yacking about it in the abstract for months
> on end isn't making this a nicer community.


Agreed.

-sv


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Old 06-18-2010, 04:53 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:36 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> Seriously those days were not very long ago, I'm not talking about the
> dark ages.

Okay sorry for the confusion, I didn't know about the discussion you
referenced or how long ago it happened. I made a compare-contrast
between now and a long while back when our planet used to not be open
and (I thought) of a less controversial nature with a higher quality of
content.

> Agreed, being considerate of others it nice. Some will do that and
> some won't. It isn't a requirement, feel free to encourage it.

Yeah, I don't think we can make and enforce rules that people need to be
considerate of each other. E.g., it's not a law in the US that you must
be considerate of others and you won't get arrested for not being
considerate. Such a thing would be ridiculous.

But *culturally* I don't think considerateness should really be an
option. I would really like to see our project with a strong culture
where a lack of considerateness is strongly discouraged. How do we build
that kind of culture?

Here's one idea I have, feel free to dart it up / use it to build a
better idea:

- Have some basic guidelines about what's appropriate to post to planet
and what's not appropriate to post to planet written up and linked to
from the planet sidebar and/or footer.

- Set up a private mailing list / ticket system / something where people
can submit complaints about posts on planet.

- If the post does seem to violate the guidelines, someone (I don't know
who) contacts the poster directly letting them know about the guidelines
and letting them know which guideline they violated and that their post
had upset some people, asking them to consider filtering it from the
planet.

Limiting contact with the poster to one person (hopefully one less
emotionally involved) rather than a deluge of complaints I think comes
off as more friendly, and I think discussing the post in a friendly
manner one-on-one is less confrontational. Overhead of a ticket system /
someone to answer the tickets is an issue though.

If you don't talk to the person how do you build the culture? I can see
how you'd read this as policy=>enforcement, but I don't think the point
is to hunt people down and punish them. I think the point is to build a
better culture, and you can't do that by just plugging your ears and
covering your eyes to things that aren't compatible with the culture
you're trying to build.

> The line was pretty clearly drawn in my mind. Planet contributors can
> pretty much talk about anything they please (given a few constraints).

What are those constraints?
>
> > But how about sexualized photos of scantily-clad women? I'm not cool
> > with that. Maybe some people are, but I don't want to have to stop
> > reading planet Fedora because I'm afraid of what might come up. If I'm
> > browsing planet Fedora during the workday and a big picture of Lucy Liu
> > in a wet white bikini is on my screen, according to my office's sexual
> > harassment policies, I'd be in trouble! To folks who don't work for Red
> > Hat, such an incident might be reason for their work in Fedora to no
> > longer be sanctioned by their employer.
>
> If said scantily-clad women are seen every day on television, on
> billboards, and in magazines I think we are overreacting. No one has
> to read the planet while at work if it is a problem to do so. I don't
> agree with that prohibition either to be honest given the previous
> discussion I had on this list about the planet.

(I hope I'm not coming off too touchy on this subject b/c I'm female,
and it probably goes without saying but I wanted to make it clear I'm
totally not offended if you still disagree with me on the above point.)

I would argue though just because they are seen every day on television,
billboards, and in magazines doesn't mean they aren't a problem there as
well. There are plenty of teenage girls killing themselves via anorexia
or bulemia... I've heard of little girls ~8 years old telling people
they are "on a diet."

Also images like that aren't equally tolerated in every country / area.
I know of a handful of popular magazines in particular that re-jigger
their layouts and photo choices for publication in particular
countries.

That aside, I feel really strongly that if Planet has content that isn't
work safe, something is wrong. There's a reason there are particular
things that aren't considered appropriate at work - because the focus at
work is supposed to be on work! Particular images are considered sexual
harassment, because they support a culture where women are second-class
citizens, and they incite negative emotional reactions in people making
them less able to get their job done.

So I would argue for planet content guidelines encouraging posts of a
nature that would be appropriate to discuss with work colleagues - cute
puppies, family ski trip, new cool phone - kosher. Your night out at the
strip club or your allegiance to your company's competitor's products -
probably not so smart to bring up at work.

> > To me it seems there are clearly classes of posts that aren't
> > acceptable.
>
> Sure. But an Ubuntu logo and while I can't read this particular post
> it seems to be about the Ubuntu manual project and if that is what it
> is about I find it hard to condemn it without knowing a lot more than
> I currently know. Right now it seems quite harmless to me.

I have a really hi-res screen and that logo is still obnoxiously big.
Maybe it wouldn't have bothered me as much if it was a reasonable
size...

> > First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it
> > appears to be a commercial page looking to grab a lot of detailed
> > personal information about people before offering anything of use.
>
> No, I don't click on random links from blogs written in languages I can't read.

Well, the link did look less-than-innocent to me.

> > Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I
> > been not excellent in bringing up the issue here? Should I have kept my
> > mouth shut? Is what I've written in protest really offensive or hurtful
> > to the poster in question?
>
> I hope you know by now that I *know* you are one of the most excellent
> people I know.

Of course and I believe the same about you
>
> I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about
> hall monitoring, toxic and poisonous people, etc. is not only not
> helping to solve any problem but is creating a harmful atmosphere of
> control and intolerance that is not what the Fedora Project needs.

I think maybe though, you're putting a particular negative spin on it
that isn't quite fair. E.g., if you look at the other side, if we don't
do anything and just 'let it all hang out' - it seems like individuals
don't always have the correct judgment in what to post, which leads to
posts that contribute to a negative atmosphere around the project or
even open source in general. Silence tends to be interpreted as an
endorsement.

For example, there is a very real misogynistic atmosphere around open
source projects in general:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents

I'm really sad that Planet Fedora is cited there (although it's far from
the worst incident on there, see
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk)

This kind of stuff goes on then we wonder why there aren't more women
involved in open source....

I think why we keep hemming and hawing about the issue here is because
freedom is such an important value to our community, and anything
appearing to be censorship evokes a visceral negative reaction. But
please, let's also consider those whose freedom is being impinged on
when we let people post whatever they want without any guidelines or
consequences. For example, we have freedom of speech in the US, but we
also have defamation laws....

~m

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