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Old 06-18-2010, 05:37 PM
susmit shannigrahi
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

But I find no harm in the said post. I often collaborate with Debian /
OpenSUSE people, I also cross post Fedora related things to those
mailing list. If we start restricting ourselves, it will be a problem
for ourselves too.

If we ban ubuntu posts on our planet, may be they will ban the mails
mentioning fedora in their mailing list.

As long as something derogatory to the fedora project isn't posted,
where is the problem?
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:45 PM
Joerg Simon
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

Am 18.06.2010 16:03, schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
> Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> Planet Fedora?

Okta has just started and according to
https://fedorahosted.org/fama/ticket/846
Heherson Pagcaliwagan(azneita) is his mentor, he will surely give him a
helping hand.

From time to time, i also put my foot into somenthing and i always
appreciate a personal note to improve myself - we are still a healthy
community and from my expiriences most(not all) issues can solved by a
short personal note.

all the best Joerg
--
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon@fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

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Old 06-18-2010, 05:49 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 19:45 +0200, Joerg Simon wrote:
> Am 18.06.2010 16:03, schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
> > Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> > Planet Fedora?
>
> Okta has just started and according to
> https://fedorahosted.org/fama/ticket/846
> Heherson Pagcaliwagan(azneita) is his mentor, he will surely give him a
> helping hand.
>
> From time to time, i also put my foot into somenthing and i always
> appreciate a personal note to improve myself - we are still a healthy
> community and from my expiriences most(not all) issues can solved by a
> short personal note.

I agree wholeheartedly a short personal note is the best thing, but it
wasn't clear to me if it was even a problem or just something that only
bothered me personally.

~m

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Old 06-18-2010, 05:53 PM
Greg DeKoenigsberg
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

If this discussion were happening on an Ubuntu list because they were butthurt about a Fedora contributor joining their planet and put up a huge Fedora logo, I'd be having a damned fine laugh at their expense.


Instead, *we* come across as being butthurt about Ooboontoo.* Plain and simple.* Makes me sad.


The appropriateness discussion is one thing, and differentiating between personal and Fedora aggregations seems like a reasonable conversation to me.


But if we can't envision a situation in which a post with a gigantic ooboontoo logo might just belong on the Fedora planet from time to time, then I think we're being reactionary and insecure.* And this isn't just Mo, either.* I think a deep insecurity about ooboontoo has taken root.



We have millions and millions of users to support.* We have those users because we're awesome.* Do a good job supporting them, and a good job of telling those stories, and the rest will take of itself.


--g


On Jun 18, 2010 9:54 AM, "Máirín Duffy" <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:36 -0500, inode0 wrote:


> Seriously those days were not very long ago, I'm not talking about the
> dark ages.

Okay sorry for the confusion, I didn't know about the discussion you

referenced or how long ago it happened. I made a compare-contrast

between now and a long while back when our planet used to not be open

and (I thought) of a less controversial nature with a higher quality of

content.



> Agreed, being considerate of others it nice. Some will do that and
> some won't. It isn't a requi...
Yeah, I don't think we can make and enforce rules that people need to be


considerate of each other. E.g., it's not a law in the US that you must

be considerate of others and you won't get arrested for not being

considerate. Such a thing would be ridiculous.



But *culturally* I don't think considerateness should really be an

option. I would really like to see our project with a strong culture

where a lack of considerateness is strongly discouraged. How do we build

that kind of culture?



Here's one idea I have, feel free to dart it up / use it to build a

better idea:



- Have some basic guidelines about what's appropriate to post to planet

and what's not appropriate to post to planet written up and linked to

from the planet sidebar and/or footer.



- Set up a private mailing list / ticket system / something where people

can submit complaints about posts on planet.



- If the post does seem to violate the guidelines, someone (I don't know

who) contacts the poster directly letting them know about the guidelines

and letting them know which guideline they violated and that their post

had upset some people, asking them to consider filtering it from the

planet.



Limiting contact with the poster to one person (hopefully one less

emotionally involved) rather than a deluge of complaints I think comes

off as more friendly, and I think discussing the post in a friendly

manner one-on-one is less confrontational. Overhead of a ticket system /

someone to answer the tickets is an issue though.



If you don't talk to the person how do you build the culture? I can see

how you'd read this as policy=>enforcement, but I don't think the point

is to hunt people down and punish them. I think the point is to build a

better culture, and you can't do that by just plugging your ears and

covering your eyes to things that aren't compatible with the culture

you're trying to build.



> The line was pretty clearly drawn in my mind. Planet contributors can
> pretty much talk about an...
What are those constraints?


>
> > But how about sexualized photos of scantily-clad women? I'm not cool
> > with that. Maybe som...
(I hope I'm not coming off too touchy on this subject b/c I'm female,


and it probably goes without saying but I wanted to make it clear I'm

totally not offended if you still disagree with me on the above point.)



I would argue though just because they are seen every day on television,

billboards, and in magazines doesn't mean they aren't a problem there as

well. There are plenty of teenage girls killing themselves via anorexia

or bulemia... I've heard of little girls ~8 years old telling people

they are "on a diet."



Also images like that aren't equally tolerated in every country / area.

I know of a handful of popular magazines in particular that re-jigger

their layouts and photo choices for publication in particular

countries.



That aside, I feel really strongly that if Planet has content that isn't

work safe, something is wrong. There's a reason there are particular

things that aren't considered appropriate at work - because the focus at

work is supposed to be on work! Particular images are considered sexual

harassment, because they support a culture where women are second-class

citizens, and they incite negative emotional reactions in people making

them less able to get their job done.



So I would argue for planet content guidelines encouraging posts of a

nature that would be appropriate to discuss with work colleagues - cute

puppies, family ski trip, new cool phone - kosher. Your night out at the

strip club or your allegiance to your company's competitor's products -

probably not so smart to bring up at work.



> > To me it seems there are clearly classes of posts that aren't
> > acceptable.
>
> Sure. But an...
I have a really hi-res screen and that logo is still obnoxiously big.


Maybe it wouldn't have bothered me as much if it was a reasonable

size...



> > First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it
> > appears to be a commer...
Well, the link did look less-than-innocent to me.



> > Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I
> > been not excellent...
Of course and I believe the same about you


>
> I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about
> hall monitoring, toxic a...
I think maybe though, you're putting a particular negative spin on it


that isn't quite fair. E.g., if you look at the other side, if we don't

do anything and just 'let it all hang out' - it seems like individuals

don't always have the correct judgment in what to post, which leads to

posts that contribute to a negative atmosphere around the project or

even open source in general. Silence tends to be interpreted as an

endorsement.



For example, there is a very real misogynistic atmosphere around open

source projects in general:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents



I'm really sad that Planet Fedora is cited there (although it's far from

the worst incident on there, see

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk)



This kind of stuff goes on then we wonder why there aren't more women

involved in open source....



I think why we keep hemming and hawing about the issue here is because

freedom is such an important value to our community, and anything

appearing to be censorship evokes a visceral negative reaction. But

please, let's also consider those whose freedom is being impinged on

when we let people post whatever they want without any guidelines or

consequences. For example, we have freedom of speech in the US, but we

also have defamation laws....



~m



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Old 06-18-2010, 06:35 PM
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

----- "Máirín Duffy" <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
>
>
> Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the
> top
> Planet Fedora?
>
> ~m
>

OMG! You got your $OTHERDISTRO on my Fedora Planet? $OTHERDISTRO users are people too.

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder |
| bob@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ |
| http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ |
| http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen |
| http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:26 PM
Chris Tyler
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 13:49 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 19:45 +0200, Joerg Simon wrote:
> > Am 18.06.2010 16:03, schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> > > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/oktarahadian/~3/3LGRNs5v_cw/
> > > Is it just me who takes issue with a 400x400 px ubuntu logo on the top
> > > Planet Fedora?
> >
> > Okta has just started and according to
> > https://fedorahosted.org/fama/ticket/846
> > Heherson Pagcaliwagan(azneita) is his mentor, he will surely give him a
> > helping hand.
> >
> > From time to time, i also put my foot into somenthing and i always
> > appreciate a personal note to improve myself - we are still a healthy
> > community and from my expiriences most(not all) issues can solved by a
> > short personal note.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly a short personal note is the best thing, but it
> wasn't clear to me if it was even a problem or just something that only
> bothered me personally.
>
> ~m

Personally, I don't view this as a significant problem -- a slight faux
pas on their part. (I do wonder if those who are working for Red Hat
find it more grating to see the logo there, perhaps? I have no idea).

It's interesting that this comes up now -- I had dinner last night with
a Fedora ambassador who's also an $ambassadorEquivalent in the Ubuntu
universe. He sees no problem in having people try multiple flavors of
FOSS, his personal goal is to get them off of proprietary code.

-Chris

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Old 06-18-2010, 07:31 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 15:26 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:

> Personally, I don't view this as a significant problem -- a slight faux
> pas on their part. (I do wonder if those who are working for Red Hat
> find it more grating to see the logo there, perhaps? I have no idea).

I only find it grating when someone refers to 'those working for red
hat' as if we're a member of a group who all thinks the same way.



> It's interesting that this comes up now -- I had dinner last night with
> a Fedora ambassador who's also an $ambassadorEquivalent in the Ubuntu
> universe. He sees no problem in having people try multiple flavors of
> FOSS, his personal goal is to get them off of proprietary code.

Except canonical isn't about no more proprietary code. They want people
using THEIR proprietary code.

-sv


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Old 06-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Ted Roche
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensen
<bob@fedoraunity.org> wrote:
>
> OMG! You got your $OTHERDISTRO on my Fedora Planet? $OTHERDISTRO users are people too.
>

Humor, if that's what was intended, really comes across poorly in
email. I've been uncomfortable with a number of the posters failing to
answer questions and instead just attacking this OP or others either
with personal ad hominem or with heavy-handed reminders of good
maillist hygiene of bottom-posting or trimming or whatever. I'm on a
number of lists for newbies and some for greybeards and this one is
becoming one of the more brutish.

Cut folks some slack here. There are naive questions. Folks for whom
English and mailing lists are not a native language. People coming
from a very different perspective than yours. Give a little benefit of
the doubt, and we might return it when you ask your question.

Can we try to be a little more polite to our fellow list members? Thanks.

Happy Father's Day to the dads out there,

Ted
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:53 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 13:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> If this discussion were happening on an Ubuntu list because they were
> butthurt about a Fedora contributor joining their planet and put up a
> huge Fedora logo, I'd be having a damned fine laugh at their expense.
>
It would be perfectly rational for them to be bothered by it if that was
the case.

Why do we have separate planets? Hmmm. Why don't we just have one planet
with all contributors from all distros?

> Instead, *we* come across as being butthurt about Ooboontoo. Plain
> and simple. Makes me sad.

> But if we can't envision a situation in which a post with a gigantic
> ooboontoo logo might just belong on the Fedora planet from time to
> time, then I think we're being reactionary and insecure. And this
> isn't just Mo, either. I think a deep insecurity about ooboontoo has
> taken

Wow, this is being blown way out of proportion to be an ubuntu-specific
problem, or to be some deep-rooted psychosis or insecurity. It's not. I
could really care less about posts having something to do with ubuntu
being posted to our planet. What seems obnoxious to me is an ubuntu logo

THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG

Front and center on the planet, with two lines of content in a
non-lingua franca language I certainly don't understand, linking to a
site that appears to be selling something and is definitely asking for a
lot more personal information than any free / open project would ever
need to know.

This, at the same time ubuntu themselves [1] are being attacked on
identi.ca, I made the assumption (perhaps unfair, perhaps rash) that
this could be a similar attack on Fedora. Certainly an account *just*
added to planet behaving in this way seems way more suspicious than say
a planet contributor who's at least been around for a few weeks and has
actually made at least one post about *fedora*, who happens to make a
random post (hopefully with enough lines of content to dwarf the hugeass
logo) about ubuntu or any other distro.

After seeing that social media attack on ubuntu I am thinking, wow,
*anybody* could sign up for a FAS account, sign up to get a blog
syndicated to planet, and just troll away. And we don't even have a
single guideline to prevent them from doing so.

So I apologize if I was rash in asking if it was a problem, and I
apologize for jumping to a lot of conclusions. But please let's drop the
Ubuntu psychosis talk because it really isn't relevant.

~m

[1] http://identi.ca/markshuttlecock , http://identi.ca/jonabacon ,
http://identi.ca/sjobs


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Old 06-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Steven Parrish
 
Default Planet Fedora guidelines?

2010/6/18 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 13:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>> If this discussion were happening on an Ubuntu list because they were
>> butthurt about a Fedora contributor joining their planet and put up a
>> huge Fedora logo, I'd be having a damned fine laugh at their expense.
>>
> It would be perfectly rational for them to be bothered by it if that was
> the case.
>
> Why do we have separate planets? Hmmm. Why don't we just have one planet
> with all contributors from all distros?
>
>> Instead, *we* come across as being butthurt about Ooboontoo. *Plain
>> and simple. *Makes me sad.
>
>> But if we can't envision a situation in which a post with a gigantic
>> ooboontoo logo might just belong on the Fedora planet from time to
>> time, then I think we're being reactionary and insecure. *And this
>> isn't just Mo, either. *I think a deep insecurity about ooboontoo has
>> taken
>
> Wow, this is being blown way out of proportion to be an ubuntu-specific
> problem, or to be some deep-rooted psychosis or insecurity. It's not. I
> could really care less about posts having something to do with ubuntu
> being posted to our planet. What seems obnoxious to me is an ubuntu logo
>
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
> THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG THISBIG
>
> Front and center on the planet, with two lines of content in a
> non-lingua franca language I certainly don't understand, linking to a
> site that appears to be selling something and is definitely asking for a
> lot more personal information than any free / open project would ever
> need to know.
>
> This, at the same time ubuntu themselves [1] are being attacked on
> identi.ca, I made the assumption (perhaps unfair, perhaps rash) that
> this could be a similar attack on Fedora. Certainly an account *just*
> added to planet behaving in this way seems way more suspicious than say
> a planet contributor who's at least been around for a few weeks and has
> actually made at least one post about *fedora*, who happens to make a
> random post (hopefully with enough lines of content to dwarf the hugeass
> logo) about ubuntu or any other distro.
>
> After seeing that social media attack on ubuntu I am thinking, wow,
> *anybody* could sign up for a FAS account, sign up to get a blog
> syndicated to planet, and just troll away. And we don't even have a
> single guideline to prevent them from doing so.
>
> So I apologize if I was rash in asking if it was a problem, and I
> apologize for jumping to a lot of conclusions. But please let's drop the
> Ubuntu psychosis talk because it really isn't relevant.
>
> ~m
>
> [1] http://identi.ca/markshuttlecock , http://identi.ca/jonabacon ,
> http://identi.ca/sjobs
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> advisory-board mailing list
> advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
>

Having just read this entire thread I think the confusion could have
been avoided had you been as clear in your 1st post as you were in
this one.

SMP
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