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Old 01-14-2010, 09:18 PM
Tim Burke
 
Default virtio-win drivers

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 01/14/2010 04:05 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
>
>> I'm less willing to believe that the mere hosting of code built
>> on other platforms is unmanageable, or intrinsically contrary to the
>> goals of the project.
>>
>
> Okay, I may have misread this. If all that is being asked of Fedora is
> to provide hosting space for these drivers, I suppose that is fine.
>
> To be clear (from my perspective):
>
> * Including pre-built virtio-win driver in a Fedora package [ NOT OK ]
> * Hosting pre-built virtio-win driver in a Fedora Hosted project (along
> with source) [ OK ]
>
>
The implications are that the "user experience" implications are that
the user will have to manually read all the instructions where it says
"go over to this other place to pick up the rest of the needed parts".

Meaning that there is a way to provide all the pieces in Fedora, just
that its not as convenient.

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Old 01-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Tim Burke
 
Default virtio-win drivers

Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
>
> Wouldn't it be possible to host the ISO packaged on libvirt.org or
> virt-manager.et.redhat.com, and have virt-manager simply configure and
> run a package download/install as needed? That should be acceptable
> in our guidelines, because the virt stack is functional (albeit
> non-optimal) without the ISO.
>
>
That is of course physically possible but from a user experience
perspective odd. Following this practice requires the users to trust a
variety of disjoint URLs. Looks completely disjoint and
non-integrated. Whereas if they are provided in an endorsed trusted
location it comes across as a much more cohesive solution.

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Old 01-14-2010, 09:27 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 05:18:56PM -0500, Tim Burke wrote:
> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> > On 01/14/2010 04:05 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
> >
> >> I'm less willing to believe that the mere hosting of code built
> >> on other platforms is unmanageable, or intrinsically contrary to the
> >> goals of the project.
> >>
> >
> > Okay, I may have misread this. If all that is being asked of Fedora is
> > to provide hosting space for these drivers, I suppose that is fine.
> >
> > To be clear (from my perspective):
> >
> > * Including pre-built virtio-win driver in a Fedora package [ NOT OK ]
> > * Hosting pre-built virtio-win driver in a Fedora Hosted project (along
> > with source) [ OK ]
> >
> >
> The implications are that the "user experience" implications are that
> the user will have to manually read all the instructions where it says
> "go over to this other place to pick up the rest of the needed parts".
>
> Meaning that there is a way to provide all the pieces in Fedora, just
> that its not as convenient.

Actually, if the virt-manager has a way of detecting that it needs
virtio-win, it should be possible to do something fairly user-visible,
downloading the driver ISO and making sure it's known about
thereafter. I'm not sure how easy that is from the CLI-exclusive
user's perspective, maybe it's not much difference.

--
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:54 PM
Justin O'Brien
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, 2010-01-14 at 15:12 -0500, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:

>
> I would argue that the virtio-win drivers are not content, but code.
>
> ~spot

I agree we shouldn't treat this like we would content

--
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:17 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 03:27:25PM -0600, Matt Domsch wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 03:12:00PM -0500, Tom spot Callaway wrote:
> > I would argue that the virtio-win drivers are not content, but code.
>
> code, for which we have the source code under an acceptable license
> (GPL). The catch is, we can't build it in a Fedora distribution
> environment, nor can we execute it in such, _and_ it requires
> proprietary tools to build. As such, keeping out of the distribution
> proper is appropriate, though I can see the parallels to firmware too.
>
> Per Justin, there is an effort to get these drivers to build with
> MinGW. At that time, they can be built in koji and packaged in the
> repositories, just as we do with the other mingw-* packages. But that
> may be a while in coming. Until then...
>
> I'm looking for a way to say "yes" to this, to keep the Fedora Project
> umbrella wider than just the strict distribution focus. This request
> may be a bit of a stretch, but only a bit.
>
> If guests don't run well on our virt platform, especially when that
> guest is very widespread, people will simply run a different virt
> platform. _That_ doesn't help us. Making it easier to provide the
> best experience when using Fedora is, IMHO, worthwile and beneficial
> to Fedora and our user base.
>
> We don't have to say yes to this hosting request. linux-kvm.org could
> be used to host these Windows drivers, but we have some precident in
> that livecd-creator for Windows is hosted on fedorahosted.org.
>
> I'm not opposed to Fedora hosting these (I suggest alt.fp.o) until
> such a time that they can be built into the repositories properly.

I've put an item on the Board's agenda for today to explicitly answer
the general policy question, of whether it's acceptable for Fedora to
host outside the repositories binaries which are built from FOSS on
another platform, for the purpose of promoting the use and
functionality of Fedora.

I agree that we want to say "yes" to this, the discussion here has
converged on "yes," and as you pointed out Matt, we do this already at
http://liveusb-creator.fedorahosted.org. I want to make sure it's
recorded for posterity and indicated in the packaging guidelines that
this is an option for developers in the future.

--
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:29 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On 01/21/2010 08:17 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I want to make sure it's
> recorded for posterity and indicated in the packaging guidelines that
> this is an option for developers in the future.

I'm with you on the former, but the packaging guidelines? You can't
package pre-built binaries in Fedora. Why should the packaging
guidelines mention them at all, aside from stating that you can't
package them?

I think the message here should be: If a code project is available under
a Free Software license, you can make pre-built binaries available on
fedorahosted.org as long as the source code used to build those binaries
is also made available and that the source code and the prebuilt
binaries are not distributed in the same tarball (or, at a minimum, that
a "source only" tarball is available).

~spot
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:31 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 08:29:10AM -0500, Tom spot Callaway wrote:
> On 01/21/2010 08:17 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > I want to make sure it's
> > recorded for posterity and indicated in the packaging guidelines that
> > this is an option for developers in the future.
>
> I'm with you on the former, but the packaging guidelines? You can't
> package pre-built binaries in Fedora. Why should the packaging
> guidelines mention them at all, aside from stating that you can't
> package them?
>
> I think the message here should be: If a code project is available under
> a Free Software license, you can make pre-built binaries available on
> fedorahosted.org as long as the source code used to build those binaries
> is also made available and that the source code and the prebuilt
> binaries are not distributed in the same tarball (or, at a minimum, that
> a "source only" tarball is available).

That's a good restatement, thanks. I'd encourage the package
guidelines to note that as an "info" admonition, answering the "what
if" question that came up here.

--
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:45 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 10:30:45AM -0600, Justin M. Forbes wrote:
> The Windows drivers required to install using kvm virtio have not been
> included in previous Fedora releases. This is a serious omission, in
> that virtio makes a noticeable performance difference for the guest.
> While it is understood that packaging up an ISO of binary drivers for
> Windows which koji cannot build is not acceptable for the fedora
> repositories, we have a problem in that we need drivers which are known
> to work with a given Fedora release. A possible solution is to have
> virt-install or virt-manager download the ISO if it is not already
> present on the host. The ISO is only around 4MB, so this shouldn't be
> too big of an issue.
>
> In order to make this work, and know that we are getting drivers that
> should work with Fedora, we really need a place to host the "officially
> supported" virtio-win drivers for Fedora. The drivers themselves are
> open source, GPL license applies. The only blocker from the real
> repositories is the fact that koji cannot build them. We are asking the
> board for approval and possibly a hosting location for these drivers so
> that they can be supported in the Fedora space. Would this be a
> possibility?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2010-01-21#virtio-win_drivers

These drivers can be hosted in Fedora space, by providing the binaries
and source -- although Fedora Hosted is acceptable, the Board left the
choice of location to the Infrastructure team. Mike McGrath and the
team will be happy to work with you on that.

--
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:49 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These drivers can be hosted in Fedora space, by providing the binaries
> and source -- although Fedora Hosted is acceptable, the Board left the
> choice of location to the Infrastructure team. *Mike McGrath and the
> team will be happy to work with you on that.

A quick followup; I made a suggestion that we include a requirement
"and clear instructions for building the software".

A sample is:

http://git.gnome.org/browse/pango/tree/README.win32

Though more ideally, you mention the exact versions of tools (such as
MSVC++) used to build the drivers.

The basic idea here is to avoid the "bus factor"; a few simple notes
can easily save a huge amount of time if for some reason someone has
to rebuild and the original developer isn't available.

Does virtio-win have such instructions?
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:58 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default virtio-win drivers

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 12:49:26PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > These drivers can be hosted in Fedora space, by providing the binaries
> > and source -- although Fedora Hosted is acceptable, the Board left the
> > choice of location to the Infrastructure team. *Mike McGrath and the
> > team will be happy to work with you on that.
>
> A quick followup; I made a suggestion that we include a requirement
> "and clear instructions for building the software".
>
> A sample is:
>
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/pango/tree/README.win32
>
> Though more ideally, you mention the exact versions of tools (such as
> MSVC++) used to build the drivers.
>
> The basic idea here is to avoid the "bus factor"; a few simple notes
> can easily save a huge amount of time if for some reason someone has
> to rebuild and the original developer isn't available.

Great idea, Colin. I proposed a patch to the Websites team that posts
information on binaries in the FAQ on fedorahosted.org:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-January/007575.html

> Does virtio-win have such instructions?

The instructions should (at a minimum) appear with the rest of the
source code, in whatever way that's distributed.

--
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