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Old 12-16-2009, 01:39 PM
Dimitris Glezos
 
Default Planet material

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 07:08:56AM -0500, Michael Tiemann wrote:
>> Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> >Hi Jon,
>> >
>> >William Jon McCann wrote:
>> >>I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC
>> >>conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. *For
>> >>these we've adopted a lingua franca. *I propose we do the same for the
>> >>"default" Fedora Planet feed.
>> >
>> >Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and
>> >also provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you
>> >think about those posts and their appropriateness for the main
>> >planet feed?
>> I think they rock! *I think they shout from the rooftops that this
>> is an international community, and an inclusive one, too.
>
> I love the fact that we have people conversing about Fedora on their
> blogs from around the world. *In fact, my bet is that we're missing a
> big chunk of conversation going on internationally, and that not
> everyone involved is including their material in our feed.
>
> But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that (sadly) I'm not much
> of a polyglot other than some German -- our German friends know my
> limitations pretty well :-) -- so I can't read or respond to most of
> these posts in any effective way. *Machine translation isn't usually
> helpful especially when reading nuances.
>
> I would love to be able to select languages and topics for what I see
> on the Planet, with the default being all topics for the lingua franca
> only. *I don't know how one achieves this with the planet software we
> use; perhaps it comes down to having some sort of app wrapping around
> the planet to provide these features.

Here's a development approach that comes in mind:

1. Read the blog post's tags in case it finds the name of a language
there. If none, guess the language and if the guess has a high enough
confidence, categorize it under the specific language, otherwise,
assume it's English. Store the association between blog post -
language on a DB.
2. Make specific languages available under http://planet.fpo/l/en+fr+de/.
3. Allow the user to select the languages he understands on the
sidebar. Store them in a cookie.
4. Show in sidebar only feeds which are blogging in my languages.
5. Use the browser's default language to highlight blog posts which
are in my native language.

-d




--
Dimitris Glezos

Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution
http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/

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Old 12-16-2009, 01:56 PM
William Jon McCann
 
Default Planet material

Hi Mo,

2009/12/16 Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org>:
> Hi Jon,
>
> William Jon McCann wrote:
>>
>> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC
>> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. *For
>> these we've adopted a lingua franca. *I propose we do the same for the
>> "default" Fedora Planet feed.
>
> Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also provide
> an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those posts
> and their appropriateness for the main planet feed?

Can you link to an example of what you mean? Without seeing it, it
still sounds a bit noisy.

> As an American I worry because I know in other places being multilingual is
> far more common and folks from such places are part of our community. I
> think what might be nice is across any planets we have, to have a sticky
> control where you check off the languages that you are interested in, and
> you can check off more than one so if I want to read both English and
> Spanish posts on the same page I can. And that setting could be sticky /
> controlled by cookie so I ever only have to click it once per computer I
> read from. (would be nice if the rss URL presented would be modified to
> match my in-page language settings as well.) What do you think about that
> idea?

I think it is very important to both understand and be considerate to
your audience. I think it is probably more effective to write
different content when directing things at different audiences. Also,
I'm not sure we want to require configuration of the planet feed -
that may send the wrong message about Fedora too (about decision
making, audience, just works mentality, etc). I'm really interested
in the defaults.

However, I think we can and should provide places for language
specific feeds. Probably even linked off the main page. Similarly we
should also have a way to get to topic specific feeds.

However, we should keep in mind that any of this configuration is not
relevant for people consuming the feeds through reader software (eg.
Google Reader). We should make sure to provide a good experience for
that too.

> Also, should there even be a main planet feed? Maybe we've outgrown it, same
> as we obviously outgrew the barcamp process at FUDcon Toronto (a good thing,
> so many awesome talks!) Maybe we could re-envision the planet as multiple
> sub-plants that could kind of mirror the topics of the major mailing lists,
> and the front page could be a dashboard of what's going on underneath -
> kinda like the front page of news.google?

I think we need both topic specific feeds and a central square/common
feed. This is important for fostering a strong sense of community,
shared vision, focus, etc.

> Then... maybe I'm going too nuts here.... but we could take a feed from
> Fedora Insight, which is going to be edited / high-quality content, post
> that up front and center... then have the individual topical planet feeds in
> two or three columns underneath organized by category. Like the latest 2 or
> 3 posts from each topic maybe...

One of the many neat things about open source is that we don't have
the public/private split (or not as much). Consumers get to pick the
level of detail they are interested in - rather than having the
corporate PR folks do it for them. The decision is most often made
based on frequency and volume. Planet Fedora will be fast, noisy,
rambunctious. My understanding of Fedora Insight is that it will be
moderated and with less frequent updates (bigger chunks). Both serve
a role and the level of interest (geekiness ) will determine which
the consumer will select. Personally, I'll take both. Maybe over the
holidays or during the week I'll read only Insight but on the train
I'll try to catch up with Planet.

But I think this is a slightly different than how a lingua franca can
help foster a sense of a single Fedora community on the Planet.

Thanks,
Jon

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Old 12-16-2009, 02:14 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Planet material

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote:


Here's a development approach that comes in mind:

1. Read the blog post's tags in case it finds the name of a language
there. If none, guess the language and if the guess has a high enough
confidence, categorize it under the specific language, otherwise,
assume it's English. Store the association between blog post -
language on a DB.
2. Make specific languages available under http://planet.fpo/l/en+fr+de/.
3. Allow the user to select the languages he understands on the
sidebar. Store them in a cookie.
4. Show in sidebar only feeds which are blogging in my languages.
5. Use the browser's default language to highlight blog posts which
are in my native language.



okay the thing most folks are missing here is what they've always missed.
This isn't about separating things out on the webpage. It's about making
the rss feeds make sense.


-sv

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Old 12-16-2009, 02:22 PM
William Jon McCann
 
Default Planet material

Hi Michael,

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Michael Tiemann <tiemann@redhat.com> wrote:
> Máirín Duffy wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> William Jon McCann wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC
>>> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. *For
>>> these we've adopted a lingua franca. *I propose we do the same for the
>>> "default" Fedora Planet feed.
>>
>> Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also
>> provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those
>> posts and their appropriateness for the main planet feed?
>
> I think they rock! *I think they shout from the rooftops that this is an
> international community, and an inclusive one, too.

I haven't seen what Mo had in mind so I'm going to comment on how much
it may rock. It may

But I think there is a subtle and important difference between being
international and being multilingual. We are indeed both. There are
various ways of demonstrating that. However, I don't think that the
best way to demonstrate that we are international or global is to
demonstrate that we are multilingual. A community shares a language
in order to communicate. That is pretty much the precondition for
community. Have to agree on terms.

As people living in the US know, being multilingual doesn't mean that
you are international. I grew up listening to both English and French
(though they didn't bother to teach it to me - my family used French
when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about). But,
my family isn't international.

It is pretty amazing that we can have a community as diverse as
Fedora. We've all come here to share, to work, to learn. In order to
do that we need to agree on the terms of the language. And not just
negotiate between the parties engaging in the conversation because in
open source the entire world takes part, even if sometimes only as an
observer. Anything else is very much not inclusive.

We can all have our own languages but when we come to the town square,
village center, meeting place, in order to trade, learn, complain,
motivate, etc, we should have one conversation.

Thanks,
Jon

PS. We should totally do that Fedora map. It would rock too!

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