Paul W. Frields wrote:
| Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth
| bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of
| those times.
|
| In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the
| schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST?
|
(...snip...)
IMHO, the one thing that everyone who lives in a timezone should know is
where they are compared to UTC. Ergo, the meeting times should be set in
UTC and enthusiasts and participants should account for DST.
This also means that when a vote is out on what time (UTC) a meeting is
to take place exactly, enthusiasts and participants need to take into
account their local DST shiftings to see what time is most appropriate
for them.
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12-11-2008, 03:59 PM
Lyos Gemini Norezel
Policy on DST
Paul W. Frields wrote:
Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth
bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of
those times.
In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the
schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST?
Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek
perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes
actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks.
Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year
seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully
negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the
Board's job to assess and remove if possible.
Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should
simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need
not use USA standards for the date of the shifting.
Practically speaking, the effect is that the meeting that happens at
11:00 local time during DST stays at 11:00 local time when DST ends,
and vice versa. That's much easier on humans than dickering around
with UTC, especially when the tools we use for tracking our time
already have the built-in capacity to change over from DST to non-DST.
Why bring this up? Take for example a Fedora team that meets in the
hour between two other meetings in the channel. The prior meeting
moves its schedule in UTC (to stay at the same local time) and the
following one does not, and thus shifts earlier by an hour when DST
ends. Suddenly there's a conflict.
We could leave this up to individual teams to resolve when this
happens, but wouldn't it be easier to just change one wiki page twice
a year?
And no, the decongestants haven't worn off yet, thanks for asking. ;-)
I know I'm late on this one... but...
Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time
zone/dst settings, if they choose?
The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based
on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing
the DST difference.
ie.:
Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc...
This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an
alternate time to compensate for the DST issues.
I'm not very familiar with Javascript and the like... but I know such
things can be done...
Would this not solve much of the issues you raise?
Lyos Gemini Norezel
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12-11-2008, 04:45 PM
Bill Nottingham
Policy on DST
Lyos Gemini Norezel (lyos.gemininorezel@gmail.com) said:
> Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time
> zone/dst settings, if they choose?
> The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based
> on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing
> the DST difference.
>
> ie.:
> Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc...
>
> This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an
> alternate time to compensate for the DST issues.
My understanding is that while a page like this could be done, it
would mean that the meeting page could no longer be on the wiki,
nor edited freely.
Whether that's a dealbreaker, I don't know.
Bill
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Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time
zone/dst settings, if they choose?
The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based
on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing
the DST difference.
ie.:
Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc...
This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an
alternate time to compensate for the DST issues.
My understanding is that while a page like this could be done, it
would mean that the meeting page could no longer be on the wiki,
nor edited freely.
Whether that's a dealbreaker, I don't know.
Bill
I don't see why not (wiki edited freely)?
Surely the table could have those fields set as variables?
Maybe I'm wrong... but setting a table w/variables on wiki shouldn't be
any harder to modify than any other page of the wiki.
Lyos Gemini Norezel
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12-12-2008, 03:56 PM
Karsten Wade
Policy on DST
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:59:44AM -0500, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
>
>
> Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time
> zone/dst settings, if they choose?
> The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based
> on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing
> the DST difference.
I think this doesn't address the core problem, but please correct me
if I'm wrong.
For example, one set of teams choose a time standard that changes
every six months, and another set of teams choose a time standard that
is fixed. This creates possibilities for meeting room conflict
whenever DST is encountered.
We could have a DST channel and a UTC channel, but that doesn't
resolve the issue of everyone already lurking in only one channel.
- Karsten
--
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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12-12-2008, 05:19 PM
Lyos Gemini Norezel
Policy on DST
Karsten Wade wrote:
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:59:44AM -0500, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
I think this doesn't address the core problem, but please correct me
if I'm wrong.
For example, one set of teams choose a time standard that changes
every six months, and another set of teams choose a time standard that
is fixed. This creates possibilities for meeting room conflict
whenever DST is encountered.
We could have a DST channel and a UTC channel, but that doesn't
resolve the issue of everyone already lurking in only one channel.
- Karsten
I don't think you understand the idea fully...
Let's see if I can explain this accurately.
Think of a spreadsheet...
Using the existing table here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meetings you add another column between
'Time in UTC' and 'Monday'...
Label this column 'Time in $DST' (in this instance the variable
'$DST' will represent the user selected timezone/DST settings)...
Then set up the needed mathematics to calculate the time in the
user's location.
Once that is complete... you would need to setup additional mathematics
that would allow the table to highlight other selections in the table
that would conflict with the users chosen time during DST dates/times.
This will allow the user to select a different time during DST.
This will allow the users to actually SEE problem areas and resolve the
issues themselves.
Mind you... this mess is only needed for those who do not understand UTC.
Lyos Gemini Norezel
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01-08-2009, 05:58 PM
"Francesco Ugolini"
Policy on DST
Here is the link
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-December/msg00011.html)
of a previous discussion we had in this list.
What's the official conclusion? Will each sub-project/SCo set its
meeting time according to UTC (chaning it when DST comes or leaves) or
whatever else ?
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
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01-08-2009, 06:50 PM
"Jon Stanley"
Policy on DST
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Francesco Ugolini
<fugolini@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> What's the official conclusion? Will each sub-project/SCo set its
> meeting time according to UTC (chaning it when DST comes or leaves) or
> whatever else ?
I'm not sure there ever was one. The logical conclusion is that each
sub-group would be free to set it's own schedule, and change it (or
not) based on DST.
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01-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Max Spevack
Policy on DST
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Jon Stanley wrote:
I'm not sure there ever was one. The logical conclusion is that each
sub-group would be free to set it's own schedule, and change it (or
not) based on DST.
"Do whatever you think is right and display adaptability in the case of
overlapping meetings."
</thread>
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Policy on DST
