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Brian Pepple 11-11-2008 11:30 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 16:11 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
<snip>

> I'd like to see some conversation on this (or none if you all agree with
> me) and a conclusion met within the next 2 weeks, that is at or before
> the release of Fedora 10.

Looks pretty reasonable to me. My big concern is if we slip for F11
(which given our past track record is fairly likely) we'll be reducing
the F12 development cycle even more.

Later,
/B
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Jesse Keating 11-11-2008 11:40 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 19:30 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote:
> Looks pretty reasonable to me. My big concern is if we slip for F11
> (which given our past track record is fairly likely) we'll be reducing
> the F12 development cycle even more.

Yep, that's always a concern. That's why I wouldn't want to commit hard
to any F12 dates. We would certainly re-evaluate the F12 plan once F11
is "in the can" as it were. But we can have the "if everything goes as
planned" type targets.

As far as avoiding slips, there are a few other schedule tweaks we're
looking to make, such as moving the feature freeze a week earlier than
the actual beta freeze, and staggered freezes for some core components
of the OS, to give us more last minute integration time while not in a
code freeze. My thought is that it'll lead to less problems /during/
the freeze, and thus shorter freezes and less slips. But that's
intra-schedule stuff, I'm still interested in overall end dates.

>
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Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams 11-12-2008 12:23 AM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 16:11 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> I'd like to see some conversation on this (or none if you all agree with
> me) and a conclusion met within the next 2 weeks, that is at or before
> the release of Fedora 10.

Sounds and looks fine to me.

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Brian Pepple 11-12-2008 12:32 AM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 16:40 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 19:30 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote:
> > Looks pretty reasonable to me. My big concern is if we slip for F11
> > (which given our past track record is fairly likely) we'll be reducing
> > the F12 development cycle even more.
>
> Yep, that's always a concern. That's why I wouldn't want to commit hard
> to any F12 dates. We would certainly re-evaluate the F12 plan once F11
> is "in the can" as it were. But we can have the "if everything goes as
> planned" type targets.

Yeah, though we should keep in mind it's a lot easier to handle a slip
for the May release, than it is for the October release (due to the
holiday season, which we experienced this go around).

/B
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Max Spevack 11-12-2008 08:38 AM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Jesse Keating wrote:


Thank you for your time and thoughts.


I think it's a very well-reasoned argument, and I support it.

--Max

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Josh Boyer 11-12-2008 01:09 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 04:11:20PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
>Long story short, here is a simple schedule we'd like to present for
>F11. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/F11ProposedSchedule
>
>Note that it is pretty basic, only a few dates are called out. Also
>those dates are somewhat subject to change. We're mostly interested in
>the end date of Tuesday May 26th. The intra-schedule dates are given
>mostly for reference, and we'll still need to spend some time vetting
>them against trade shows, holidays, etc... We'll also be filling in all
>the other details that you typically see in a Fedora schedule, once we
>reach an agreed upon strategy for F11/F12.
>
>I'd like to see some conversation on this (or none if you all agree with
>me) and a conclusion met within the next 2 weeks, that is at or before
>the release of Fedora 10.
>
>Thank you for your time and thoughts.

Looks fine to me. Honestly, this seems to be just a representation of
reality than anything else. Slips happen and trying to contain those
by shortening the next release hasn't gone well in the past anyway.

It's probably also worth pointing out that _development_ for F11 has
been open for packages as long as they've had an F10 branch. That
is everything as of last week. So developers can get an early jump,
we just can't really test it :)

josh

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"Paul W. Frields" 11-12-2008 02:50 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 16:11 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> We (Fedora Release Engineering) would like to propose a schedule for
> F11. The reason I'm bringing this to F-A-B is that it is a departure
> from our typical May1/Oct31 release dates.
[...snip...]

Well thought out, and well communicated. +1 from me.

I'm interested to see, once the general dates are settled, how the
intraschedule freeze dates work out in terms of adding more
predictability and stability.

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"Dimitris Glezos" 11-12-2008 05:36 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> We (Fedora Release Engineering) would like to propose a schedule for
> F11. The reason I'm bringing this to F-A-B is that it is a departure
> from our typical May1/Oct31 release dates. This is due to the month~
> delay that Fedora 10 has had already due to the break in.
>
> [...]
> I'd like to see some conversation on this (or none if you all agree with
> me) and a conclusion met within the next 2 weeks, that is at or before
> the release of Fedora 10.

I too agree that the proposal is well-thought and sounds reasonable.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, too.

-╬┤


--
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loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
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Jeremy Katz 11-12-2008 05:46 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 19:30 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 16:11 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> <snip>
> > I'd like to see some conversation on this (or none if you all agree with
> > me) and a conclusion met within the next 2 weeks, that is at or before
> > the release of Fedora 10.
>
> Looks pretty reasonable to me. My big concern is if we slip for F11
> (which given our past track record is fairly likely) we'll be reducing
> the F12 development cycle even more.

This reasoning is exactly why we decided a few years ago that the dates
(May Day/Halloween) were to be the target dates always. If a release
slips, we realign the next one to what it should been targeted with.
Yes, it means a shortened window in this case for F11, but the
predictability it adds is significant and if F11 slips, the impact to
F12 is lessened.

Otherwise, we're really saying that the release date of release n+1 is
release n's date + six months (which is what we used to do). And the
problem with that is that any slips over time meaning that we end up
running into major holidays for a release date and have to have a
long/short cycle to reset things.

Jeremy

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"Jeff Spaleta" 11-12-2008 06:03 PM

Fedora 11 schedule proposal
 
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Jeremy Katz <katzj@redhat.com> wrote:
> Otherwise, we're really saying that the release date of release n+1 is
> release n's date + six months (which is what we used to do). And the
> problem with that is that any slips over time meaning that we end up
> running into major holidays for a release date and have to have a
> long/short cycle to reset things.

Does it make sense to ask the following questions?

Historically, how much do we tend to slip per release? Disregarding
the month during F10 run up specifically during the infrastructure
rebuild. Are we somewhat consistent with regard to slippage? Is there
an average slippage? The sample size is pretty small so I admit its
not a statically valid measure. What's the most we've slipped in the
past, that is not the direct result of significant system downtime?

Accounting for historical slippage, were does F12 release land? Mid Nov?

-jef

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