Fedora Board election results

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> I'd worry people wouldn't be as open about voting if we start poking
> around at who they're voting for and try to infer some result from that.

I don't want to see who people voted for. I want to get a sense of
who is voting in aggregate.
I'm not particularly happy with the voter turn out. And if I can
identify some sort of grouping that was under represented, I think
that's important information to know.

-jef"I'm only in for a release cycle, I need to start campaigning now!
Going after under represented groups is a strong campaign
strategy."spaleta

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On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the
> > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted
> > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats.
> >
> >
> > I'd like to see some aggregate breakdown of the voters if I could.
> > Questions I'm interested in.
> >
> > % of voters who were redhat employees and is it in proportion to the %
> > of eligible voters.
> >
> > relative voters turnout by country or region of origin. Do we have
> > aggregate information on contributor country of origin numbers to
> > compare with?
> >
>
> I'd worry people wouldn't be as open about voting if we start poking
> around at who they're voting for and try to infer some result from that.

He didn't ask for who people voted for. He is just looking for
demographics of the voting body. Why, I don't know. But the data he's
asking for still ensures the individual votes are "anonymous" to the
public.

josh

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On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve?

If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He
should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.

-jef

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On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve?
>
> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He
> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.

That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane
reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be.

Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs.
community?

Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should
we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like
Red Hat)?

IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.

josh

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On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve?
>>
>> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
>> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
>> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
>> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
>> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
>> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He
>> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
>> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.
>
> That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane
> reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be.
>
> Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs.
> community?
>

If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out...
then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election.
Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do
people not feel franchised?

> Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should
> we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like
> Red Hat)?
>
> IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.
>

It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be
recognized or represented and thus give up on the system.

> josh
>
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>



--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs.
> community?
>
> Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should
> we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like
> Red Hat)?
>
> IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.

You have stated an ideal, but its not the current reality. It
shouldn't matter... but it does...deep down in people's brains the
distinction matters. The fact is Mike's initial comment very much
grounded in the distinction between inside Red Hat and outside. In
fact we've made quite a big deal that we have more external
contributors then red hat contributors. We continue to draw a
distinction between these groups in our efforts to point out there's
no distinction. With that in mind I want a picture of the breakdown
between redhat and non-redhat voters so I can know if we have done an
appropriate job communicating the importance of the board elections
out into the external community. If there is a significant voting
imbalance, we find it, then we take steps to make that identified
imbalance go away next time by getting feedback from that segment of
the community sooner rather than later.

-jef

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On Tuesday 24 June 2008 18:12:04 Josh Boyer wrote:
> IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.

I agree. If we only had a small percentage of voters related to the total
number of potential voters then those statistics become even more irrelevant.

> josh

--
José Abílio

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On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election.
He should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.


You're just checking to see if I'm reading this thread, right?

--Max

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On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve?
> >>
> >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
> >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
> >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
> >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
> >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
> >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He
> >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
> >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.
> >
> > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane
> > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be.
> >
> > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs.
> > community?
> >
>
> If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out...
> then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election.
> Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do
> people not feel franchised?

You aren't going to be able to answer those questions without asking
people directly. And for those outside of Red Hat that _did_ vote, it's
a pointless question.

You can get the answers to those specific questions without finding out
a percentage of Red Hat vs. non-Red Hat voters. Just ask people on
blogs, f-a-b, fedora-devel, <other communication channel> to explain why
they didn't vote.

> > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should
> > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like
> > Red Hat)?
> >
> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.
> >
>
> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be
> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system.

Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented.
If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for
representation voluntarily.

josh

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On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve?
>> >>
>> >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do
>> >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to
>> >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile.
>> >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers
>> >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to
>> >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He
>> >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help
>> >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake.
>> >
>> > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane
>> > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be.
>> >
>> > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs.
>> > community?
>> >
>>
>> If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out...
>> then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election.
>> Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do
>> people not feel franchised?
>
> You aren't going to be able to answer those questions without asking
> people directly. And for those outside of Red Hat that _did_ vote, it's
> a pointless question.
>
> You can get the answers to those specific questions without finding out
> a percentage of Red Hat vs. non-Red Hat voters. Just ask people on
> blogs, f-a-b, fedora-devel, <other communication channel> to explain why
> they didn't vote.
>
>> > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should
>> > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like
>> > Red Hat)?
>> >
>> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter.
>> >
>>
>> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be
>> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system.
>
> Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented.
> If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for
> representation voluntarily.


That argument is logically valid but humans are not logical. If people
feel that voting is not going to make a difference they will have no
incentive to continue with the process. Our brain's logical centers
are easily over-ridden by our emotional and other centers.. a lot
easier than we like to believe. It is the purposeful or non-purposeful
manipulation of those over-rides that doing this check is to help keep
in check. [Of course it could also lead to the fact that if you see
that 90% of Dell employees voted but 10% of RH employees voted.. you
should target those people more]

Or go for mandatory voting with a 'Non-of-the-above' category if
people aren't happy with any of the candidates.


--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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