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Old 11-15-2010, 08:54 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

Greetings.

In the meeting today we discussed when to move EPEL6 out of beta, now
that RHEL6 final is out. In the past we had said "when CentOS6 is out",
mostly in order to give time after final to build things up, etc.

Moving out of Beta means: We would start using bodhi for all updates,
The 2 weeks in testing before going stable would be enforced, We would
have epel and epel-testing repos in our release package, buildroot
overrides would be needed if you wanted to build against a newly built
package, etc.

What do folks think on when we should move out of Beta mode:

a) When CentOS6 is out.

b) 1 month after RHEL6 was released.

c) NOW!

d) Something else.

IMHO it's nice to give a bit of time now that we know the final package
list in RHEL6 to branch and build items. Also, some EPEL folks may want
to make sure they have the very latest (stable) items built that they
are willing to try and support for the RHEL6 life time.

Feedback welcome.

kevin
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:03 PM
Stephen Gallagher
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/15/2010 04:54 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> In the meeting today we discussed when to move EPEL6 out of beta, now
> that RHEL6 final is out. In the past we had said "when CentOS6 is out",
> mostly in order to give time after final to build things up, etc.
>
> Moving out of Beta means: We would start using bodhi for all updates,
> The 2 weeks in testing before going stable would be enforced, We would
> have epel and epel-testing repos in our release package, buildroot
> overrides would be needed if you wanted to build against a newly built
> package, etc.
>
> What do folks think on when we should move out of Beta mode:
>
> a) When CentOS6 is out.
>
> b) 1 month after RHEL6 was released.
>
> c) NOW!
>
> d) Something else.
>
> IMHO it's nice to give a bit of time now that we know the final package
> list in RHEL6 to branch and build items. Also, some EPEL folks may want
> to make sure they have the very latest (stable) items built that they
> are willing to try and support for the RHEL6 life time.

I vote for b) with the below as rationale:

As a related question: for EPEL 6 can we discuss the possibility of
having EPEL6.1, EPEL6.2 releases where we consider the possibility of
releasing minor and (possibly) major package updates?

RHEL itself will sometimes rev minor and major versions of packages
during Y-stream releases (6.1, 6.2, etc.) I personally think that we
should consider doing something similar in EPEL. One month after each
RHEL Y-stream release, we should allow similar updates to happen in EPEL.

Logistically, I'd be suggesting that we should maintain a primary EPEL6
branch and an ongoing EPEL6-beta branch. Individual packages could then
be merged into the EPEL6 primary branch one month or so after a RHEL
Y-stream release.

It would make maintaining packages for EPEL a lot more approachable if
there was a plan for when it would be okay to have new functionality
updates. It would also be predictable from a consumer's perspective.

- --
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:44 PM
BJ Dierkes
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

On Nov 15, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>
> I vote for b) with the below as rationale:
>
> As a related question: for EPEL 6 can we discuss the possibility of
> having EPEL6.1, EPEL6.2 releases where we consider the possibility of
> releasing minor and (possibly) major package updates?
>
> RHEL itself will sometimes rev minor and major versions of packages
> during Y-stream releases (6.1, 6.2, etc.) I personally think that we
> should consider doing something similar in EPEL. One month after each
> RHEL Y-stream release, we should allow similar updates to happen in EPEL.
>
> Logistically, I'd be suggesting that we should maintain a primary EPEL6
> branch and an ongoing EPEL6-beta branch. Individual packages could then
> be merged into the EPEL6 primary branch one month or so after a RHEL
> Y-stream release.
>
> It would make maintaining packages for EPEL a lot more approachable if
> there was a plan for when it would be okay to have new functionality
> updates. It would also be predictable from a consumer's perspective.
>

On the subject of point releases... but not exactly the same reasoning... I've brought up the idea of supporting EUS (z-stream) in the past which was more or less shot down. Being that we are still in EPEL 6 beta times... I figure its worth asking again, is there any thoughts of supporting EUS? Currently, if any RHEL users out there are using EPEL base on an older EUS point release (like 5.4z) ... some things have the potential to break (memcached due to libevent, etc).

The reason I ask is... if we build out the capability to build against up coming point releases separately, how much more work would it be to keep older point releases around... allowing EUS users to access EPEL 6.x for packages that are built against their EUS point release.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

---
derks





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Old 11-15-2010, 11:22 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

Once upon a time, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> said:
> In the meeting today we discussed when to move EPEL6 out of beta, now
> that RHEL6 final is out. In the past we had said "when CentOS6 is out",
> mostly in order to give time after final to build things up, etc.

Why should EPEL wait for CentOS? If there is a valid reason to wait
some time, that should be used as the metric, not when another group
gets their release done (this gets back to my "is EPEL's primary target
RHEL or CentOS - it can't be both" question from a few months back).

> b) 1 month after RHEL6 was released.

Is there a particular reason to wait? Is specific additional testing
being done, with results being used to determine overall status?

If not, I don't see any reason to wait, especially an arbitrary period
of time. Release it now.

Some things may not be there at release time, but again, unless EPEL is
going to be held up for those packages, there's no point in waiting.
--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Old 11-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

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Hash: SHA1

On 11/15/2010 04:22 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
> If not, I don't see any reason to wait, especially an arbitrary period
> of time. Release it now.
>
> Some things may not be there at release time, but again, unless EPEL is
> going to be held up for those packages, there's no point in waiting.

I think part of the reason is that non-RHT customers have no binaries in
which to test their builds upon. Ballparking here, but I think not a
small amount of EPEL packagers are CentOS (or other) users and not RHEL
users.

That said, I think it would be quite fair to grant each EPEL packager
with a RHEL developer entitlement which could be used to test their
builds upon.

- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 11-16-2010, 02:44 AM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 17:29, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 11/15/2010 04:22 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
>> If not, I don't see any reason to wait, especially an arbitrary period
>> of time. *Release it now.
>>
>> Some things may not be there at release time, but again, unless EPEL is
>> going to be held up for those packages, there's no point in waiting.
>
> I think part of the reason is that non-RHT customers have no binaries in
> which to test their builds upon. *Ballparking here, but I think not a
> small amount of EPEL packagers are CentOS (or other) users and not RHEL
> users.

The last time I checked it was 75% were CentOS users but that was
around 5 came out.

> That said, I think it would be quite fair to grant each EPEL packager
> with a RHEL developer entitlement which could be used to test their
> builds upon.
>

Good luck with that .



--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance."
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard
battle." -- Ian MacLaren

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Old 11-16-2010, 02:54 AM
Orion Poplawski
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

On 11/15/2010 2:54 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

Greetings.

In the meeting today we discussed when to move EPEL6 out of beta, now
that RHEL6 final is out. In the past we had said "when CentOS6 is out",
mostly in order to give time after final to build things up, etc.

Moving out of Beta means: We would start using bodhi for all updates,
The 2 weeks in testing before going stable would be enforced, We would
have epel and epel-testing repos in our release package, buildroot
overrides would be needed if you wanted to build against a newly built
package, etc.

What do folks think on when we should move out of Beta mode:

a) When CentOS6 is out.

b) 1 month after RHEL6 was released.

c) NOW!

d) Something else.

IMHO it's nice to give a bit of time now that we know the final package
list in RHEL6 to branch and build items. Also, some EPEL folks may want
to make sure they have the very latest (stable) items built that they
are willing to try and support for the RHEL6 life time.



Some kind of delay would be good. fftw just now showed up so there will
be a number of scientific packages to be built, and it would ease that.
I'd like to see one more list of packages not built yet too. But I
could see 2-4 weeks being fine. Although, I won't be able to test out
my packages outside of the build system until Centos 6 is out.


- Orion

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Old 11-16-2010, 03:46 AM
Chris Adams
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

Once upon a time, Orion Poplawski <orion@cora.nwra.com> said:
> Some kind of delay would be good. fftw just now showed up so there will
> be a number of scientific packages to be built, and it would ease that.

I guess I don't see why the packages that are ready can't be released.
Just because it is "released" doesn't mean that every package from EPEL
5 is available for EPEL 6.

--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Old 11-16-2010, 04:08 AM
Chris Adams
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

Once upon a time, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> said:
> I think part of the reason is that non-RHT customers have no binaries in
> which to test their builds upon. Ballparking here, but I think not a
> small amount of EPEL packagers are CentOS (or other) users and not RHEL
> users.

I've probably come off sounding short/argumentative in this, and I want
to apologize for that. I'm really just trying to figure out the reasons
behind the choices and decisions.

What does "released" mean for EPEL? AFAIK it doesn't mean "100%
packages available". There is a set of packages that are (or at least
are believed to be) ready now; why not release them now? If someone is
waiting on CentOS to get their packages ready, that's okay; those
packages won't be in the EPEL 6 release tree until they are.

That's why I asked if there is some metric to use to decide when EPEL is
"ready". If it is X% of packages, or certain "major" packages, that
should be documented somewhere, and then when that point is reach, EPEL
can be released. I don't see any reason for just waiting an arbitrary
amount of time (what if nothing really changes in a month?).

EPEL doesn't have separate release and updates trees; there's just the
EPEL tree. Packages are added as somebody picks them up, so I would say
just release what is considered ready now and let EPEL 6 grow over time
(just like previous EPEL versions have done).

> That said, I think it would be quite fair to grant each EPEL packager
> with a RHEL developer entitlement which could be used to test their
> builds upon.

That would be nice, although it would probably require some minimum
level of commitment (e.g. not people like me that only maintain a couple
of very minor packages, and otherwise just agitate in Bugzilla and on
mailing lists :-) ).

I still think some clear direction about which OS is the primary target
for EPEL (RHEL or CentOS) should be stated. Since CentOS will always
lag RHEL (not through any failure of CentOS; it is just a fact), EPEL
can either target RHEL and update things when new RHEL updates come out
that require EPEL changes, or wait until CentOS gets the compatible
update in place. You can't have it both ways, at least not for the same
packages, and I would think the policy should be the same for all of
EPEL.

CentOS also already has its own set of add-on repos (although not near
as large as EPEL) that have some overlap with EPEL. My personal
preference (of course because I use RHEL) would be for EPEL to stay
current with RHEL, rather than wait for CentOS.

For example, in the situation where RHEL releases a backwards
incompatible security update that requires an updated EPEL package, but
the EPEL package is waiting for CentOS, a "yum update" will not load the
RHEL security update unless you first remove the old EPEL package,
blocking the update from RHEL users.

On the other hand, if the EPEL package is updated before CentOS gets the
security update, the CentOS users can use --skip-broken to just skip the
EPEL update they can't yet load, and RHEL users can load all their
updates. Once CentOS gets the update, they'll get the EPEL update as
well. I think that's a better situation.

--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Old 11-16-2010, 04:26 AM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default EPEL6 When to go out of Beta?

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:46:55 -0600
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:

> Once upon a time, Orion Poplawski <orion@cora.nwra.com> said:
> > Some kind of delay would be good. fftw just now showed up so there
> > will be a number of scientific packages to be built, and it would
> > ease that.
>
> I guess I don't see why the packages that are ready can't be released.
> Just because it is "released" doesn't mean that every package from
> EPEL 5 is available for EPEL 6.

Well, the packages are 'released'.

http://mirrors.tummy.com/pub/fedora.redhat.com/epel/beta/6/

They just have the word 'beta' in the url and the release process is
more lax than in a 'stabe' epel release. You can use and test and
provide feedback.

kevin
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