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Old 02-12-2008, 10:42 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

Hi there,
** I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video, audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:


https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients

Kind Regards,
David V.

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Old 02-13-2008, 08:06 PM
"Jim Kronebusch"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:42:29 +0100, David Van Assche wrote
> Hi there,
> I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots
> with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless
> workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not
> complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my
> computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video,
> audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients
>
> Kind Regards,
> David V.

Very cool David. Thanks for your work in documenting this. I will be likely installing
50 "Low Fat" clients this summer in addition to our existing 108 thin clients (I think
the name "Low Fat" by the way is awesome :-). The thin clients will be for students,
the low fat clients will be new full power machines for teachers.

I am wondering if there is any reason one couldn't install a workstation as normal,
tweak things, then copy the workstation directories over to the server into
/opt/ltsp/lf_i386? I think this is how it is recommended to build a PPC client tree, so
I don't see why this wouldn't work. If this is possible, would anyone care to provide
instructions as to the best way to do this?

Right now I have 3 teacher machines that are the test pilots for this over the summer.
They are identical hardware, and are already completely configured for mounting /home
and auth to ldap. The only piece left for them is to get them booting from the server.
I would love to simply move the contents from one of these completed machines over.

Thanks,
Jim
------- End of Forwarded Message -------


Jim Kronebusch
Cotter Tech Department
453-5188


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Old 02-13-2008, 08:38 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

Hi Alexander,
** It takes up as much space as you need it to. It really depends on what files you have installed, but calculate that a XFCE based chroot with open office, firefox, and various multimedia tools will probably take up to 600 MB and a full edubuntu desktop install will probably take up to 1* gig. It takes slighltly longer than a traditional thin client ltsp-update-image, but its still very reasonable.


David

On Feb 13, 2008 2:56 PM, Alexander Hanff <core.ldf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi David,

I was wondering if you could tell me approximately how much space this takes up?* I am in the process of doing a feasibility study on setting up an Open Learning lab and had been thinking of adding a flash drive to each "thin" client for the purpose of mounting /home or maybe storing video files, but if I could mount the whole chroot instead this would obviously be a vastly superior solution and would improve the responsiveness of the clients significantly.



Thanks for the howto

Alexander Hanff

On Feb 12, 2008 11:42 PM, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi there,
** I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video, audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:




https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients

Kind Regards,
David V.


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Old 02-13-2008, 08:55 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

Hi Jim,
** The one thing to remember is that the ltsp-client-core part of the startup process does certain things like auto-configure X, create an automated fstab with detected devices, and so on. One would have to look at ltsp-client-core and ltsp-client-setup to understand exactly what it does at setup and startup. But I believe it would be better to explode the necessary items in the thin client chroot after an ltsp-build-client. I believe the ltsp startup parts are still quite valuable and will allow for upgrades without breaking anything, which is what I have tried to do in the wiki, by utilising elements like XF86CONFIG= and RC_FILENN= in lts.conf.


** I know Ogra is looking into creating a script that does all of this automatically, but it is still a ways off (hardy+1 maybe?), but if you find it possible to do it the way you mentioned, please document it and add to the wiki... There are invariably many ways to achieve the same end result, but working with the ltsp structure so we can upgrade the environments as and when we need to will be important.


David

On Feb 13, 2008 8:55 PM, Jim Kronebusch <jim@winonacotter.org> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:42:29 +0100, David Van Assche wrote
> Hi there,
> * *I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots
> with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless

> workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not
> complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my
> computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video,

> audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients

>
> Kind Regards,
> David V.

Very cool David. *Thanks for your work in documenting this. *I will be likely installing
50 "Low Fat" clients this summer in addition to our existing 108 thin clients (I think

the name "Low Fat" by the way is awesome :-). *The thin clients will be for students,
the low fat clients will be new full power machines for teachers.

I am wondering if there is any reason one couldn't install a workstation as normal,

tweak things, then copy the workstation directories over to the server into
/opt/ltsp/lf_i386? *I think this is how it is recommended to build a PPC client tree, so
I don't see why this wouldn't work. *If this is possible, would anyone care to provide

instructions as to the best way to do this?

Right now I have 3 teacher machines that are the test pilots for this over the summer.
They are identical hardware, and are already completely configured for mounting /home

and auth to ldap. *The only piece left for them is to get them booting from the server.
*I would love to simply move the contents from one of these completed machines over.

Thanks,
Jim


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Old 02-14-2008, 09:48 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 13.02.2008, 22:38 +0100 schrieb David Van Assche:
> Hi Alexander,
> It takes up as much space as you need it to. It really depends on
> what files you have installed, but calculate that a XFCE based chroot
> with open office, firefox, and various multimedia tools will probably
> take up to 600 MB and a full edubuntu desktop install will probably
> take up to 1 gig. It takes slighltly longer than a traditional thin
> client ltsp-update-image, but its still very reasonable.
note that ltsp actually only uses the files form /opt/ltsp/images ... if
you are done with tweaking, you can tar up the chroot and burn it to CD
or so and delete the files in /opt/ltsp/1386 ... that will save
significant amounts of diskspace ...

for hardy+1 i want to have
http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-image-shell/
ready. that will operate without any chroot directly on the image.

ciao
oli
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:01 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 13.02.2008, 16:06 -0500 schrieb Jim Kronebusch:

> I am wondering if there is any reason one couldn't install a workstation as normal,
> tweak things, then copy the workstation directories over to the server into
> /opt/ltsp/lf_i386? I think this is how it is recommended to build a PPC client tree, so
> I don't see why this wouldn't work. If this is possible, would anyone care to provide
> instructions as to the best way to do this?
you will need teh ltsp initramfs ... and there are a good bunch of
settings in a normal install that will just break if you try to run it
on ltsp (readahead will cause a kernel oops for example if you use it on
a stacked filesystem, apparmor will cause kernel opps on stacked FS as
well ... etc etc) best to create a fat chroot is to start off by what
ltsp-build-client gives you and then add the desktop to it ... your
mileage will vary here i would promote such a setup if i knew it would
work out of the box but the possibility that you run into additional
(and unknown) breakage like the above described one is very likely ...

as i said in another mail, once you have the app selection ready and
working its only a matter of copying the .img file around ... the chroot
itself only exists for maintenance (or for people who insist on using
nfs indeed)

in any case it would be very helpful to get a list with all breakage
that shows up if yu try to run ubuntu-desktop on a fat client setup so i
could work it down to have all of them fixed at some point

ciao
oli


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Old 02-14-2008, 12:43 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

** I've been doing this for a while now, and I've come to the conclusion that the breakage happens only when you try and replace some of the ltsp-client-core and ltsp-client-setup stuff with the traditional setup (use your own fstab - causes udev to break, use xorg.conf - causes gdm and X to freeze and break, mount home with anything other than an external script run via RC_FILENN= - causes system to freeze and udev problems again.)

** In essence, if you work with the ltsp setup files, there should be few problems. I've managed to get both edubuntu-desktop and xfce-desktop to work with ldap authentication. There are still some details that need to be ironed out (network setup - probably using an RC_FILENN=, usb mounts and local disk mounts - need gnome-mount and some ldap settings for the plugdev group.)

** I get your point about backing up i386 to a CD, but I'd imagine a low fat environment will need more upgrades/maintenance than the traditional thin client, since apps need to be upgraded from within the chroot and run locally. In any case, hard drives aren't exactly expensive :-)

** And a question... would the chrooted environments benefit from being mounted on 10,000 rpm drives?

David

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:

hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 13.02.2008, 16:06 -0500 schrieb Jim Kronebusch:



> I am wondering if there is any reason one couldn't install a workstation as normal,

> tweak things, then copy the workstation directories over to the server into

> /opt/ltsp/lf_i386? *I think this is how it is recommended to build a PPC client tree, so

> I don't see why this wouldn't work. *If this is possible, would anyone care to provide

> instructions as to the best way to do this?

you will need teh ltsp initramfs ... and there are a good bunch of

settings in a normal install that will just break if you try to run it

on ltsp (readahead will cause a kernel oops for example if you use it on

a stacked filesystem, apparmor will cause kernel opps on stacked FS as

well ... etc etc) best to create a fat chroot is to start off by what

ltsp-build-client gives you and then add the desktop to it ... your

mileage will vary here i would promote such a setup if i knew it would

work out of the box but the possibility that you run into additional

(and unknown) breakage like the above described one is very likely ...



as i said in another mail, once you have the app selection ready and

working its only a matter of copying the .img file around ... the chroot

itself only exists for maintenance (or for people who insist on using

nfs indeed)



in any case it would be very helpful to get a list with all breakage

that shows up if yu try to run ubuntu-desktop on a fat client setup so i

could work it down to have all of them fixed at some point



ciao

* * * *oli






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Old 02-14-2008, 06:15 PM
"Jim Kronebusch"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

> note that ltsp actually only uses the files form /opt/ltsp/images ... if
> you are done with tweaking, you can tar up the chroot and burn it to CD
> or so and delete the files in /opt/ltsp/1386 ... that will save
> significant amounts of diskspace ...
>
> for hardy+1 i want to have
> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-image-shell/
> ready. that will operate without any chroot directly on the image.
>
> ciao
> oli

I will be trying this for the time being with 7.04. So I assume this means any changes
I make will only need to be done in the chroot and I will not have to update any images
and such. Let me know if there are any reasons this procedure won't work under 7.04 and
if I need to do anything beyond installing and configuring the chroot.

Hopefully I will be able to upgrade my server setup to Hardy this summer, but for now
things are running rock solid, so I'll leave it at Feisty.

Jim

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Old 02-14-2008, 06:39 PM
"Jim Kronebusch"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:42:29 +0100, David Van Assche wrote
> Hi there,
> I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots
> with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless
> workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not
> complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my
> computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video,
> audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients

Well, I started to get things going, I created the chroot with ltsp-build-client, then
got to the point to expand my base chroot with apt-get install edubuntu-desktop. Things
got to the point of configuring acpid then broke hard (errors below). And even with -f
options and running dpkg --configure -a I can't get it to move on.

I am wondering if when you have done this you stepped in slower, maybe starting with the
minimal install, then moving towards edubuntu-desktop? I might wipe the directory and
try it that way. Or maybe this is a difference with 7.04.

Errors:
Setting up acpid (1.0.4-5ubuntu6) ...
* Starting ACPI services...
invoke-rc.d: initscript acpid, action "start" failed.
dpkg: error processing acpid (--configure):
subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
Errors were encountered while processing:
acpid
root@ltsp:/# apt-get install -f acpid
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
acpid is already the newest version.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
6 not fully installed or removed.
Need to get 0B of archives.
After unpacking 0B of additional disk space will be used.
Setting up acpid (1.0.4-5ubuntu6) ...
* Starting ACPI services...
invoke-rc.d: initscript acpid, action "start" failed.
dpkg: error processing acpid (--configure):
subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of acpi-support:
acpi-support depends on acpid (>= 1.0.4-1ubuntu4); however:
Package acpid is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing acpi-support (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of powermanagement-interface:
powermanagement-interface depends on acpi-support (>= 0.17); however:
Package acpi-support is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing powermanagement-interface (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of gnome-power-manager:
gnome-power-manager depends on powermanagement-interface; however:
Package powermanagement-interface is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing gnome-power-manager (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of gnome-session:
gnome-session depends on gnome-power-manager; however:
Package gnome-power-manager is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing gnome-session (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of edubuntu-desktop:
edubuntu-desktop depends on acpi-support; however:
Package acpi-support is not configured yet.
edubuntu-desktop depends on acpid; however:
Package acpid is not configured yet.
edubuntu-desktop depends on gnome-power-manager; however:
Package gnome-power-manager is not configured yet.
edubuntu-desktop depends on gnome-session; however:
Package gnome-session is not configured yet.
edubuntu-desktop depends on powermanagement-interface; however:
Package powermanagement-interface is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing edubuntu-desktop (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Errors were encountered while processing:
acpid
acpi-support
powermanagement-interface
gnome-power-manager
gnome-session
edubuntu-desktop
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
root@ltsp:/#


Thanks,
Jim

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Old 02-14-2008, 06:53 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default creating fat 'thin' clients with ltsp

Did you mount /proc and /sys?

those errors seem to indicate you didn't. You must mount them in the chroot or the dependency issues go crazy :-)

And yes, I did do the minimal xfce install first. But that should be irrelevant, there should be no breakage as long as you mount the necessary mount points. And don't forget to unmount when you are done. Trying to build the client with proc and sys mounted in the chroot will not be pretty.


David

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Jim Kronebusch <jim@winonacotter.org> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:42:29 +0100, David Van Assche wrote

> Hi there,

> * *I've recently documented the steps needed to make alternative fat chroots

> with local apps and local cpu/memory usage. So called ltsp diskless

> workstations, or low fat clients. The wiki is here, and though is not

> complete, Ive tested it and it works (I am running it on 20 computers in my

> computer lab that require multimedia apps, aswell as flash, java, video,

> audio, etc. Take a look here and feel free to add to it or ask me questions:

>

> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients



Well, I started to get things going, I created the chroot with ltsp-build-client, then

got to the point to expand my base chroot with apt-get install edubuntu-desktop. *Things

got to the point of configuring acpid then broke hard (errors below). *And even with -f

options and running dpkg --configure -a I can't get it to move on.



I am wondering if when you have done this you stepped in slower, maybe starting with the

minimal install, then moving towards edubuntu-desktop? *I might wipe the directory and

try it that way. *Or maybe this is a difference with 7.04.



Errors:

Setting up acpid (1.0.4-5ubuntu6) ...

** Starting ACPI services...

invoke-rc.d: initscript acpid, action "start" failed.

dpkg: error processing acpid (--configure):

*subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1

Errors were encountered while processing:

*acpid

root@ltsp:/# apt-get install -f acpid

Reading package lists... Done

Building dependency tree

Reading state information... Done

acpid is already the newest version.

0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

6 not fully installed or removed.

Need to get 0B of archives.

After unpacking 0B of additional disk space will be used.

Setting up acpid (1.0.4-5ubuntu6) ...

** Starting ACPI services...

invoke-rc.d: initscript acpid, action "start" failed.

dpkg: error processing acpid (--configure):

*subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1

dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of acpi-support:

*acpi-support depends on acpid (>= 1.0.4-1ubuntu4); however:

*Package acpid is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing acpi-support (--configure):

*dependency problems - leaving unconfigured

dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of powermanagement-interface:

*powermanagement-interface depends on acpi-support (>= 0.17); however:

*Package acpi-support is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing powermanagement-interface (--configure):

*dependency problems - leaving unconfigured

dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of gnome-power-manager:

*gnome-power-manager depends on powermanagement-interface; however:

*Package powermanagement-interface is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing gnome-power-manager (--configure):

*dependency problems - leaving unconfigured

dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of gnome-session:

*gnome-session depends on gnome-power-manager; however:

*Package gnome-power-manager is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing gnome-session (--configure):

*dependency problems - leaving unconfigured

dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of edubuntu-desktop:

*edubuntu-desktop depends on acpi-support; however:

*Package acpi-support is not configured yet.

*edubuntu-desktop depends on acpid; however:

*Package acpid is not configured yet.

*edubuntu-desktop depends on gnome-power-manager; however:

*Package gnome-power-manager is not configured yet.

*edubuntu-desktop depends on gnome-session; however:

*Package gnome-session is not configured yet.

*edubuntu-desktop depends on powermanagement-interface; however:

*Package powermanagement-interface is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing edubuntu-desktop (--configure):

*dependency problems - leaving unconfigured

Errors were encountered while processing:

*acpid

*acpi-support

*powermanagement-interface

*gnome-power-manager

*gnome-session

*edubuntu-desktop

E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

root@ltsp:/#





Thanks,

Jim



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