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Old 12-13-2007, 01:29 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default problems with graphics cards

I've been running 7.10 Gutsy on 60 computers with a powerful 64 bit server running on 6 Gigs of Ram (surprisingly little RAM is used) for a good 3 months now. I've read the reports of 7.10 being a failure and I have to disagree on most accounts. If you don't modify too much and you know what you are doing, things work wonderfully, with more speed, and better login procedures than ever before. There is one area, though, which seems to have gotten worse rather than better, and this is the attempt at auto detecting all graphics cards and monitors. It simply does not work with older cards or newer cards (50% of my cards needed to be hacked in the
lts.conf file where possible) or needed a special chroot (newer ati containing cards, since the bundled ubuntu ati driver doesnt work.)
** My school has just bought a newish intel (x3200 gma) containing laptop and surprise, no auto-detection under any circumstances. (yes I've tried 16 bit and 24 bit graphic modes in
lts.conf)
** Another ati laptop they bought hangs on startup (thought it was due to apic, but adding the necessary noapic stuff to grub doesnt help.)
** 3 widescreen monitors (1440x900) will not startup in that resolution no matter what I try...

So my question is, why o why did they take out xconfig? It is absolutely essential to be able to hack the graphic cards and monitor options... and with Gutsy it has become an almost impossible task. This was not an issue with
7.04, so in some respects, I feel the disappointment that others mention...
** Sadly, the only solution I see is making special chroots for all the exceptions to the rule (auto-detection of the graphics card details)


David Van Assche


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Old 12-13-2007, 05:06 PM
"R. Scott Belford"
 
Default problems with graphics cards

David Van Assche wrote:
> I've been running 7.10 Gutsy on 60 computers with a powerful 64 bit
> server running on 6 Gigs of Ram (surprisingly little RAM is used) for a
> good 3 months now. I've read the reports of 7.10 being a failure and I
> have to disagree on most accounts. If you don't modify too much and you
> know what you are doing, things work wonderfully,

I've read a few of the comments about how it works fine and you must be
a ween if it doesn't work for you. I'll make sure to pass this feedback
on to the non-technical teachers in need of affordable technology and a
helpful community that understands their skill and time limits.

Just out of curiousity, David, how would the average teacher, you know,
the ones that we want to adopt Edubuntu but have fewer than a few hours
each week to admin, how would they have handled this issue

> This is very cool, definetly useful for any real world scenario. Its a
> constant daily task to kill processes and/or show teachers and
> students how to do this themselves... Its very common for firefox not
> to start due to the 'you are already running another session of
> firefox' message. This will seriously reduce administration times...
> good work... just one question... will it work on Gutsy ?

This was your own statement. Until I found watchdog and installed it
for one of the teachers I help, his lab was failing as the day
progressed. This was quite a modification that required you to know
what you are doing.

and this

> I've just noticed sound is not working on my clients... It was working fine under feisty.... what can I do to get it back?

The average teacher who upgrades from 7.04 to 7.10 will be able to
budget how much time to researching and solving this while wondering why
they have *more* work after upgrading?

and this

> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowtoNAT

You, like myself and others, have been pointing people to a wiki that
doesn't work after reboot.


and this

> I'm assuming something must have changed in Gutsy as to how users are
> detected, but its a shame because my teachers started using this a lot
> and were praising it to high heaven. Now we're a bit stuck using tcm,
> which leaves a lot to be desired.
>
> Any help to get it to work would be much appreciated.

You, like many, really enjoyed the functionality of TCM and Teachertool.
Now TCM doesn't work with Gutsy, and you have to hack away at TT.

The words that stand out to me are "my teachers" which suggests that you
are support, you are not the average teacher surviving without David
there to support her. You actually do know what you are doing, and the
school is blessed to have you around. If Edubuntu is going to be Linux
for Human Beings (who know what they are doing), then we should ignore
me as flamebait and go about patting ourselves on the backs for doing a
great job. Meanwhile, on the Edubuntu developers mailing list, some guy
from Augusta has stumbled on the site and asked a question to the wrong
forum about installation issues. I wonder what the ripple effect of
Edubuntu adoption will be for his social network when he has to escalate
his skillset to even become a user.

This is by no means to challenge you, at all, David. I just wanted to
use your experiences to observe that we, as early adopters who know what
we are doing, are not the teachers who need this software. Some
teachers don't even know they need it, and they certainly wouldn't be
able to come to a list like this and know how to ask for help much less
how to implement it.

--scott

> Sadly, the only solution I see is making special chroots for all the
> exceptions to the rule (auto-detection of the graphics card details)

let's hope that no teacher ever has to do that. :-)

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Old 12-13-2007, 11:07 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default problems with graphics cards

On Dec 13, 2007 7:06 PM, R. Scott Belford <scott@hosef.org> wrote:

David Van Assche wrote:
> I've been running 7.10 Gutsy on 60 computers with a powerful 64 bit
> server running on 6 Gigs of Ram (surprisingly little RAM is used) for a
> good 3 months now. I've read the reports of
7.10 being a failure and I
> have to disagree on most accounts. If you don't modify too much and you
> know what you are doing, things work wonderfully,

I've read a few of the comments about how it works fine and you must be

a ween if it doesn't work for you. *I'll make sure to pass this feedback
on to the non-technical teachers in need of affordable technology and a
helpful community that understands their skill and time limits.


by no means did I mean to sound like a snob, but I let me explain the main reason I said I disagree with what was said:

a fresh install of edubuntu on an average server with a set of average clients does indeed work out of the box. with no additional tinkering u actually have a usable environment, with internet on thin clients, with sound, and (sometimes) with usb support on the thin clients.


A default install of windows 2003 would be far more problematic to get working out of the box on terminal clients, believe me.


Just out of curiousity, David, how would the average teacher, you know,
the ones that we want to adopt Edubuntu but have fewer than a few hours
each week to admin, how would they have handled this issue

I would warn them that they should get support from canonical: http://www.canonical.com/services/support

1 year of support will cost them 1200 dollars for support* every hour* of the working day. That is damn good, if not unparalleled.



> This is very cool, definetly useful for any real world scenario. Its a

> constant daily task to kill processes and/or show teachers and
> students how to do this themselves... Its very common for firefox not
> to start due to the 'you are already running another session of

> firefox' message. This will seriously reduce administration times...
> good work... just one question... will it work on Gutsy ?

This was your own statement. *Until I found watchdog and installed it

for one of the teachers I help, his lab was failing as the day
progressed. *This was quite a modification that required you to know
what you are doing.*
Since watchdog is 32 bit, I cannot use it, I installed webmin, and check the processes that are eating up memory and cpu time, once day, kill the unnecessary ones, and that leaves the system stable with upto 60 concurrent users. Ive shown this process to the school director in case Im not there, and he seems to be able handle that allright.*

and this

> I've just noticed sound is not working on my clients... It was working fine under feisty.... what can I do to get it back?


The average teacher who upgrades from 7.04 to 7.10 will be able to
budget how much time to researching and solving this while wondering why
they have *more* work after upgrading?
Agreed. Upgrading doesnt work, didn't work, and I lost countless hours on that process. I would say do NOT upgrade a production server if you're not ready to problem solve the next couple of days away on silly problems.



and this

*>
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowtoNAT

You, like myself and others, have been pointing people to a wiki that
doesn't work after reboot.

Remember though, that this is for NON thin clients on the same network... this is not out of the box functionality... it should be included by the devs by default, but they do not claim to have this working in their release notes, as far as I have seen.

*
and this

> I'm assuming something must have changed in Gutsy as to how users are

> detected, but its a shame because my teachers started using this a lot
> and were praising it to high heaven. Now we're a bit stuck using tcm,
> which leaves a lot to be desired.
>
> Any help to get it to work would be much appreciated.


You, like many, really enjoyed the functionality of TCM and Teachertool.
*Now TCM doesn't work with Gutsy, and you have to hack away at TT.

Yes, admining the thin clients isnt too easy with the TCM, but the only thing that does not work is the thin client display sharing... which to me is a advanced feature... its a wishlist thing for me... but you can use the TCM to kill clients, see what processes are running, etc. TT is better but TCM does the same job (minus the sharing which I would love for my class)


The words that stand out to me are "my teachers" which suggests that you

are support, you are not the average teacher surviving without David
there to support her. *You actually do know what you are doing, and the
school is blessed to have you around. *If Edubuntu is going to be Linux


Yes, the previous teacher left the school because they could not get their head around Linux, but they didnt really try or give it a chance either. You obviously need support of some sort or another in a larger school facility. There is no way that a networked setup of 30 plus computers with a server and central logins is going to work by itself, no matter what operating system you stick on it. My belief is that windows would cause far more problems on the same hardware Im using than the current set of problems that have occured. The flaw in thinking here is that edubuntu should work without any support. That is just crazy... teachers and students working the server to the max as they do are not predictable, and without support by a knowledgable admin, or Ubuntu Canonical itself, they better stick to a non networked environment with individual computers running whatever they want (in fact, before working at the school fulltime, I had that setup in their primary facility, edubuntu running as fat clients without a server, and I had to go in and take a look maybe 3 or 4 times a year to resolve normal admin issues for 10 computers.

*for Human Beings (who know what they are doing), then we should ignore
me as flamebait and go about patting ourselves on the backs for doing a

great job. *Meanwhile, on the Edubuntu developers mailing list, some guy
from Augusta has stumbled on the site and asked a question to the wrong
forum about installation issues. *I wonder what the ripple effect of

Edubuntu adoption will be for his social network when he has to escalate
his skillset to even become a user.

This is by no means to challenge you, at all, David. *I just wanted to
use your experiences to observe that we, as early adopters who know what

we are doing, are not the teachers who need this software. *Some
teachers don't even know they need it, and they certainly wouldn't be
able to come to a list like this and know how to ask for help much less

how to implement it.

Many of my mails to the list do indeed ask questions, but that is because I am a tinkerer by nature, and certainly using edubuntu in a non-standard way... I have changed the default setup considerably, so issues like sound, usb, login, chroot environment etc are bound to pop up.


I agree that a single teacher with little linux experience would be crazy to adopt edubuntu in a* real world environment without support... but this is true of any OS, not just ubuntu, and of any distribution, not just gutsy.


If you want an absolutely flawless experince, get support, at 1200 dollars a year that is not too bad...
*

--scott

> * *Sadly, the only solution I see is making special chroots for all the
> exceptions to the rule (auto-detection of the graphics card details)

let's hope that no teacher ever has to do that. :-)



Yeah the graphics card thing is annoying... The idea that in a thin client environment where u can have so many different client setups to autodetect graphics cards without being able to reconfigure that part is crazy... this was a step backwards, I hope a dev hears me :-)



David
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