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Old 09-10-2008, 05:22 PM
Scott Balneaves
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

I posted something yesterday, but I don't think it made the list.

It's been posted on this list that Edubuntu's been unfavorably compared to
K12LTSP and Skolelinux. Mostly in terms of support for "older" thin clients.

Certainly, with the move of LTSP to using distro packages, a lot of "size"
options have moved out of the hands of LTSP. As far as I'm aware, both Skole
and K12 used LTSP 4.2, which:

* Was custom compiled from all upstream sources
* Was hugely tweaked by Jim and I
* Was, for the most part, completely unmaintainable.

It was a huge job for us to roll 4.2 out the door, and after we did, there were
no security updates, or bug fixes or much of anything by the LTSP team at that
point, simply because it was so hard to maintain. That was when we came up
with the idea to use Distro packages to build LTSP. Which has now been
implemented.

However, for all the benefits it's brought us (faster development cycle,
updates, security fixes, etc.) the one thing it HASN'T done, is keep it the
same, small, hand tweaked size it used to be. This certainly means that some
hardware that used to perform well under LTSP 4.2 will NOT perform well under
LTSP5.

Why? Simple. X has grown. The Kernel has grown (we're not using 2.4
anymore). We're using modern udev, instead of the old hotplug, or monolithic
kernels, etc. In short, "Linux" becomes bigger, so does LTSP.

Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize things, but the
bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply isn't going to work
as a thin client any more. You may view this as a minus, and it probably is,
but I think the advantages probably outweigh the minuses. We have a lot more
features than we used to, and work with a lot of (albeit newer) hardware that
we didn't before.

However, I have a proposition. I have a whole whack of different thin clients
at home, most I've bought, some I've had donated to me. I *don't* however,
have a DevonIT unit, which seems to be a common sore point with people here.

If someone would like to ship me one, I'd be happy to do some testing, and
possible tweaking with it.

As well, probably a lot of the outstanding bugs were addressed at the recent
LTSP hackfest, but we've got another one coming up in November.

Before then, anyone who's:

1) Got current problems with LTSP
2) Has the time (!) to help me triage them
3) Has the patience to do the testing of any fixes

I'm more than happy to work with.

As a kickoff, LaserJock and I were discussing an "LTSP Triage Day" Next
Wednesday, with an eye to potentially fixing some problems. I'm willing to
wager that MOST of the problems will fall into:

1) Not enough ram/swap on the server
2) Programs not cleaning up after themselves (i.e. gnome)
3) "too underpowered" clients (Some tweaking may help).

So, how about it? Anybody want to take me up on it next Wednesday?

Cheers,
Scott

--
Scott L. Balneaves | "There are many causes I am prepared to die for,
Systems Department | but no causes I am prepared to kill for."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

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Old 09-11-2008, 10:34 AM
"Todd O'Bryan"
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Scott Balneaves <sbalneav@legalaid.mb.ca> wrote:

However, I have a proposition. *I have a whole whack of different thin clients

at home, most I've bought, some I've had donated to me. *I *don't* however,

have a DevonIT unit, which seems to be a common sore point with people here.



If someone would like to ship me one, I'd be happy to do some testing, and

possible tweaking with it.
Scott,

Thanks for the offer! I only have 30 clients, but I don't have any classes with 30 kids this year, so I could send you one of my clients for you to play with for a while. I'd need to get it back after a few weeks--the school board gets annoyed if we try to give away stuff we've bought with public funds--but I'd be happy to pay for shipping there and back.


Email me off-list with address info and I can probably stick it in the mail today or tomorrow.

Todd

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Old 09-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Asmo Koskinen
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

Scott Balneaves kirjoitti:

> Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize things, but the
> bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply isn't going to work
> as a thin client any more. You may view this as a minus, and it probably is,
> but I think the advantages probably outweigh the minuses. We have a lot more
> features than we used to, and work with a lot of (albeit newer) hardware that
> we didn't before.

Good example for brand new hardware is Acer Aspire One. I have that
notebook for testing just this night only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspire_One

Ubuntu 8.04.1 can not handle that notebook out-of-box, lan driver
(r8169) fails.

I think it is this one:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/225749

But Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha 5 does. Here are screenshots from notebook as thin
client.

http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Ubuntu_8.10_Alpha_5_LTSP5_Acer_Aspire_One_01.png
http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Ubuntu_8.10_Alpha_5_LTSP5_Acer_Aspire_One_02.png

If you have very new hardware, you need very new distro/kernel and then
LTSP5 works.

Best Regards Asmo Koskinen.

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Old 09-14-2008, 04:45 PM
Asmo Koskinen
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

Asmo Koskinen kirjoitti:

> But Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha 5 does. Here are screenshots from notebook as thin
> client.
>
> http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Ubuntu_8.10_Alpha_5_LTSP5_Acer_Aspire_One_01.png
> http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Ubuntu_8.10_Alpha_5_LTSP5_Acer_Aspire_One_02.png

With 20" Acer LCD (1680x1050), screenshot from thin client:

http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Ubuntu_8.10_Alpha_5_LTSP5_Acer_Aspire_One_03.png

Best Regards Asmo Koskinen.

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Old 09-14-2008, 04:59 PM
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

"Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize
things, but the
bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply isn't
going to work
as a thin client any more."

Of course an old 486 with 16 m ram will work as a thin client!! you
can always use it as a telnet terminal or install a distro that is
suitable for this architecture.
Even now my toaster is running as a thin client, just joking

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Old 09-14-2008, 05:26 PM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

hi,
On So, 2008-09-14 at 18:59 +0200, ltsp@infoux.com wrote:
> "Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize
> things, but the
> bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply isn't
> going to work
> as a thin client any more."
>
> Of course an old 486 with 16 m ram will work as a thin client!! you
sadly the 2.6.xx kernels need about 32M to uncompress and load the
intramfs alone ... 8.10 will solve a bit of that, booting 24M might be
possible with inrepid ibex ...

486 CPUs shouldnt be any prob though as long as you install
linux-image-i386 in the client environment ...



indeed thats nothing to do serious stuff with beyond telnetting or
running a shell driven database frontend ...

ciao
oli


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Old 09-14-2008, 05:49 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

Which brings an idea into play... Would it be possible to create a
useful telnet terminal that can do a number of things like in the old
vms days. So you are presented with a simple menu like so:

1. email (don't need graphics for this one, just pine or mutt or something)
2. web (we use linx or lynx with a predefined set of eductational
websites that are linx friendly)
3. irc (this one is relatively easy since its been around since the
beginning of time)
4. exit to shell

Might not be useful in all environments, but it would allow reuse of
old old systems and bring a serious speedup to the network. If all a
user wants is information or to send an email (often the case) we send
them to one of these text only terminals....

David Van Assche

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> hi,
> On So, 2008-09-14 at 18:59 +0200, ltsp@infoux.com wrote:
>> "Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize
>> things, but the
>> bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply isn't
>> going to work
>> as a thin client any more."
>>
>> Of course an old 486 with 16 m ram will work as a thin client!! you
> sadly the 2.6.xx kernels need about 32M to uncompress and load the
> intramfs alone ... 8.10 will solve a bit of that, booting 24M might be
> possible with inrepid ibex ...
>
> 486 CPUs shouldnt be any prob though as long as you install
> linux-image-i386 in the client environment ...
>
>
>
> indeed thats nothing to do serious stuff with beyond telnetting or
> running a shell driven database frontend ...
>
> ciao
> oli
>
>
>
> --
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> edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
>
>

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Old 09-14-2008, 05:54 PM
doug vega
 
Default Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage

how about incliding the kdrive for this kind of machines it has a smaller memory foot print

--- On Sun, 9/14/08, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:
From: David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum client expectations, LTSP Triage
To: "Oliver Grawert" <ogra@ubuntu.com>
Cc: edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Received: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 1:49 PM

Which brings an idea into play... Would it be possible to create a
useful telnet terminal that can do a number of things like in the old
vms days. So you are presented with a simple menu like so:

1. email (don't need graphics for this one, just pine or mutt or something)
2. web (we use linx or lynx with a
predefined set of eductational
websites that are linx friendly)
3. irc (this one is relatively easy since its been around since the
beginning of time)
4. exit to shell

Might not be useful in all environments, but it would allow reuse of
old old systems and bring a serious speedup to the network. If all a
user wants is information or to send an email (often the case) we send
them to one of these text only terminals....

David Van Assche

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> hi,
> On So, 2008-09-14 at 18:59 +0200, ltsp@infoux.com wrote:
>> "Certainly, within some small spaces, we may be able to optimize
>> things, but the
>> bottom line is, that old 486 with 16 megs of memory simply
isn't
>> going to work
>> as a thin client any more."
>>
>> Of course an old 486 with 16 m ram will work as a
thin client!! you
> sadly the 2.6.xx kernels need about 32M to uncompress and load the
> intramfs alone ... 8.10 will solve a bit of that, booting 24M might be
> possible with inrepid ibex ...
>
> 486 CPUs shouldnt be any prob though as long as you install
> linux-image-i386 in the client environment ...
>
>
>
> indeed thats nothing to do serious stuff with beyond telnetting or
> running a shell driven database frontend ...
>
> ciao
> oli
>
>
>
> --
> edubuntu-users mailing list
> edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
>
>

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