FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Edubuntu User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-10-2008, 05:02 PM
Asmo Koskinen
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Asmo Koskinen kirjoitti:

> I will later tonight install darkstat for network traffic on both
> servers for two days.

So here is our little deal. I'll give you lots of real world statics and
you figure out what is right and what is not. Two school days should
give use useful statics.

I visit in school on both days and ask teachers to use all the clients
very rough.

http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5/Stat/

Best Regards Asmo Koskinen.

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-10-2008, 06:14 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Rather than make this heated, lets try and keep it productive so the
thread becomes helpful rather than offensive.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:58 PM, R. Scott Belford <scott@hosef.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:05 PM, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I've taken a look into the email in question, and can answer some
>> questions. I in no way am affiliated with canonical, though I do work
>> within the ed/ubuntu community. Firstly, Scott mentions not using
>> 8.04, clearly you should upgrade as that will solve 50% of your
>> issues... the other issues are all valid, and I guess the problem is
>> one of communication between developers and end users. Lets address
>> the issues seperately:
>
> Actually, David, I have tested 8.04 in my labs, have installed it several
> times, but do not dare deploy it in a production environment. 7.10 was too
> detrimental, and the Canonical/Edu/Ubu cultures are still maturing to the
> point that user issues on an official mailing list find a path upstream to
> real fixes.

This is a choice you make, but I agree that 7.10 had a lot of issues.
8.04, in stark contrast has few of the same issues, and works quite
well in production environments. Not to mention the fact that an LTS
should make you feel a little more comfortable than focusing on a
product which won't be supported much longer. I really don't
understand that last part of that paragraph about ubuntu cultures, but
I guess you are implying fixes are not being taken care of. This is
simply not true.

>>
>> - The gnome lingering process problem
>>
>> Agreed.. this is a heavy issue that is a pain in the behind, but it is
>> not LTSP centric... the fault lies with gnome. Right now the
>> workaround is a watchdog script, which seems to work ok, but is by no
>> means a fix... This needs to be tackled from the gnome side... Right
>> now the solution is in monitoring and ending misbehaving processes
>> through the script or by hand via pkill -u or killall. It makes sense
>> to clean all processes at least 1 time per day... consider it
>> maintenance.
>
> The issue never existed in any K12LTSP or Skolelinux releases. What did
> they do differently? Why are they not blaming Gnome? Do you truly think
> that telling a teacher just to run pkill or killall will help advance the
> adoption of FOSS in schools? Is this the final product that Edubuntu
> seeks? Are you familiar with the one-hour per week of Admin time that is
> fundamental to the Skolelinux architecture?

Have you tested all the skolelinux and k12ltsp versions?

You do realise that kde is not gnome right? (skolelinux = kde,
k12ltsplinux = kde as default)

skolelinux is debian
k12ltsp is centos or now Fedora

The code is the SAME in ALL LTSP 5... is that so hard to grasp?

And yes I have run both debian + ltsp and fedora + ltsp with exactly
the same misbehaving processes issue...

Or are you comparing LTSP 4.2 with LTSP 5? The 2 are entirely
different beasts, and you are welcome to continue using the older 4.2
if it seems more stable to you. But for a majority of users I'd
imagine they want to use something a little more recent than a 4 year
old OS running ancient kde...

>>
>>
>> - tcm (thin client manager)
>>
>> Indeed this no longer exists, and I believe it has been discussed
>> about here before on various occasions. Italc has replaced thin client
>> manager as the software that should be run to control thin clients
>> from a centralised location. The new documentation reflects this (new
>> in intrepid ibex), and I agree it was confusing, but a quick jump to a
>> channel of importance (#ltsp primarily, but also #edubuntu) will give
>> you the answers you need. Or a search in google. To install it is
>> apt-get install italc-client
>
> Intrepid documentation addresses this, or Feisty/Hardy documentation address
> this? Why should a first-time adopter go to IRC or anywhere other than
> Edubuntu documentation to solve this? What is the goal of this project - to
> appeal to advanced users or to appeal to educators?

As stated above... intrepid... the documentation for
feisty/gutsy/hardy is a little outdated granted. irc is the second
line of support, if you don't find what you are looking for in
documentation...

>>
>> - port forwarding
>>
>>
>> The reason this is not built in is because no one knows how the
>> network structure looks like at a particular location. There could be
>> many different setups, but the documentation tells you how to easily
>> do this in the most common way (this has been in documentation for a
>> while now):
>
> The issue is that the standard method for activating port forwarding was
> broken in Feisty. You could not run echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
> and have it work. It works fine in Debian. The issue was not that port
> forwarding was off by default. It is off by default in Debian. The
> documentation had several, contradicting fixes, for a while now.

please list the contradicting fixes that are in the documentation, as
I only know of the one I pasted from the documentation itself... it
would help to fix these documentation issues, and that I can do.

>>
>> Setting network forwarding
>> Primary server will act as an network gateway for other servers. With
>> this configuration, other workstations will be able to
>> access the network behind the primary server. Here is an example of
>> script that setup the network forwarding. We put it in
>> /etc/network/if-up.d/forward.sh, and make it executable.
>
> This is or is not included in Hardy? If one wishes to share the WAN on a

is included in hardy

> LAN with Edubuntu, they also had to hack the dhcpd.conf file to set the
> gateway to be the same IP address as the Edubuntu server. You don't seem to
> mention this below. Have you shared your WAN in a Feisty environment with
> computers other than thin-clients before?

really don't know what you mean with that hack... its not a hack, its
an option... I've always used shorewall to masquerade my traffic, but
that's not the point. The point is that the reason this is not done by
default is that all networks are different as another user has already
agreed to and given an example in this same thread

>>
>> The script
>> will run at each network start. In this example, the primary
>> server private IP is 192.168.0.1. It must be adapted for the IP address
>> used.
>> #!/bin/bash
>> echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
>> echo Setting up the forwarding
>> LAN_IP_NET="192.168.0.1/24"
>> LAN_NIC="eth1"
>> OUT_NIC="eth0"
>> iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s $LAN_IP_NET -o $OUT_NIC -j MASQUERADE
>> iptables -A FORWARD -j ACCEPT -i $LAN_NIC -s $LAN_IP_NET
>> iptables -A FORWARD -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
>
> Is all of this above your fix for forwarding? There is neater documentation
> for this.

No... this is copy and paste from documentation...

>>
>> - speaking to canonical employee
>>
>> Well, you may have spoken to canonical employees, but just like in any
>> larger company, unless you talk to the ones involved in the area you
>> are asking about, you'll probably get blank stares or answers that
>> don't fit. You did not speak to any educational or ltsp canonical
>> developer. I guarantee that if you search a little you'll quickly find
>> out who they are. If you are serious about your issues and concerns,
>> then why not try to contact one of these developers directly?
>
> Do you know who I spoke with, David? They knew Richard and Ollie. Did you
> notice in my commentary about speaking with them that it was their

So you've spoken to Richard and Ollie about your concerns directly?

> suggestion that I blog or write about my issues on the mailing list? I am
> quite serious about my issues and concerns, I have used the official
> Edubuntu mailing list to address them, I have addressed them with executives
> who purportedly have relationships with Mr. Shuttleworth, and I have
> addressed the education team that sometimes speaks up on this mailing list.
>
> To date the meetings I set up for the Canonical executives interested in
> selling into Hawaii's government and DOE are still waiting for follow-up
> from Canonical.
>>
>>
>> - lts.conf file
>>
>> This is where LTSP gets complex, and its the same across ALL
>> distributions...
>
> This is absurd, David. LTS.CONF IS NOT THE SAME ACROSS ALL DISTRIBUTIONS.
> PERIOD.

Dude... I have just rewritten the documentation for LTSP, and lts.conf
is the SAME across all LTSP 5... the same file, the same options... is
this so difficult to grasp, I must be repeating myself...

> Have you seen the lts.conf file that came from the Jim McQuillan/Eric
> Harrison combo with the K12LTSP? I suppose not based on your comment. Have
> you seen the lts.conf file in Skolelinux? Have you seen the different
> LTS.CONF files shared by others on this list?

1. The options that lts.conf takes are the SAME across all distros...
obviously different users use different sets of these options...
2. LTSP 4.2 =! LTSP 5

> LTS.CONF is where LTSP gets less complex and more deployable if you have a
> good team upstream.

have you got any idea of who ltsp upstream is right now? And what
exactly do you mean by lts.conf making ltsp _less_ complex..?
More deployable... I whole heartedly agree, as long as you don't mind
creating and editing the file ;-)

>
>
>>
>> If you don't know how to create a file, then it is
>> not recommended you touch a lts.conf file. Increasingly, reliance on
>> this file has been diminished to the point that in MOST setups the
>> lts.conf file is not really required. But if it is, a quick read
>> through the documentation will show you an example file and where it
>> should go.
>
> Look, the fact of the matter is that the only way to support the generations
> of hardware that the Edubuntu documentation said was supported was to tweak
> LTS.CONF. Period.

can u note down which of your hardware requires lts.conf support
please. I'm just curious what you are using... I run 150 thin clients
at a deployed 8.04 location (all kinds of machines and graphics cards,
you couldn't get a more mixed up setup) and I use lts.conf to push
through resolution and printing, nothing more...

>>
>>
>> - upgrading from earlier versions
>>
>> Finally, I would recommend against upgrading, but instead noting the
>> setup you have and migrating that to a new already working ltsp setup.
>> If you have ubuntu 7.10, then installing a new 8.04 from the alternate
>> cd is the best practice that will cause the least pain... and if you
>> have problems... go to the #ltsp channel, where you will probably get
>> an answer to any question within minutes. oh, and for the record...
>> the devs do read this list...
>
> I find it hard to believe that any devs with any power or will to improve
> Edu/Ubu Buntu actually read this list and take the time to test fixes. What
> is your relationship with Canonical and your depth of experience setting up,
> deploying, supporting, and advocting on behalf of Thin Client setups, David?

Well, with emails like these, I can imagine their willpower dwindling
quickly... like I mentioned before I have no association with
canonical, but I do know the people who are responsible for making
LTSP and edubuntu available... they deserve a great deal of respect
for having done massive amounts of LTSP work that is now used in other
distros as well as ubuntu. I have been involved with this for a good 2
years now, so no I don't remember what ltsp 4.2 was like, but my depth
of experience is related to the amount of time I chose to get involved
in all aspects of ltsp 5 and its deployment in schools. I have been a
teacher using LTSP in the classroom, and a unix/linux sysadmin for 10+
years and I am involved in the community and have offered and now
completed updating the LTSP documentation for all distros.

Kind Regards,
David Van Assche

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-10-2008, 06:33 PM
"R. Scott Belford"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Jordan Mantha <laserjock@ubuntu.com> wrote:

------8<-----snip-------



I get the impression at times that people think there are a myriad of

people paid to work on these issues. The reality is that there has

only ever been 1 person paid to work on Edubuntu/LTSP, and in fact

that person has been moved to another project for his paid time and is

now volunteering like the rest of us to work on Edubuntu. We had a

period of time where the primary developers of Edubuntu were basically

inactive due to real life situations. I know I personally feel like

I've let the community down by not being around for Hardy, but I have

real life obligations I can't just shirk to work on software. These

are the times when we need people from the user community to step up

and maybe try to contribute a bit here and there. I'm somewhat

frantically trying to get Intrepid ready for release and Scott

Balneaves sounds like he's able to help out more with LTSP bugs. We're

planning on having an LTSP Bug Day next week (looks like Wednesday) in

#edubuntu and could use all the help we can get (testing, triage,

patches, etc.).
---------8<-------snip------

Thanks for your note, Jordan.* It is true
that a positive, pro-active, and constructive direction needs to be
assumed.* I am not sure that paid staff is the key to success or the
reason for failure.* The 'only one person is getting paid' case was
made last year during the Feisty debacle.



I imagine that most people on this list are trying Edubuntu not
because they are paid to but because they heard about it and decided to
give it a go.* I doubt there are many job descriptions calling for
this.* We all do it because we care.* I personally run a non-profit, at
great personal cost, to advance the adoption of FOSS in Hawaii.* It's
not because I'm getting paid.



Understanding the dynamics of this community, and those behind the
successes and failures of Skolelinux and the K12LTSP, is the key to our
success.* You may or may not realize, for instance, that Fedora started
because Warren was fed up with our work helping schools with FOSS
because he felt that there was not enough customization and tools to
make it teacher-friendly.* Years later Fedora + RedHat + Eric Harrison
and Jim McQuillan equaled the K12LTSP.



The culture of the RedHat sponsored K12OSN mailing list was such
that Bugs and Experiences could be reported on the mailing list, and
fixes and patches were created.* Because users saw Eric H or Jim M
actively engaging the community, with Aloha, the community responded
with feedback, support, help, etc.* No one was told to come to IRC if
they wanted satisfaction, to file a bug if they wanted it fixed, or to
buy a support contract from Red Hat if they needed help.



The culture of the debian-edu mailing list is one of momentum and
organization.* I have bugzilla reports, end-user questions, and
packaging discussions all arrive in my mailbox.* Skolelinux has
certainly benefitted from government sponsorship, but, the philosophy
and intent have been Focused on a distro requiring one hour or less of
support each week by an average teacher.* With this goal in mind, there
is a reason to respond to all mailing list queries.



A bug squashing on IRC next week sounds good.* If I have submitted
bugs to the mailing list but cannot make the IRC meeting, is it still
my responsibility to handle this bug?* Is there a process for known
bugs to be addressed whether they come from the list or Launchpad?



All the pieces are in place.* I'd like to think that there is
nothing but good will amongst the communities of users and developers.*
A little vision and follow-through is all we lack.

With Respect


--scott

If you've got nothing to be defensive of, why be defensive?

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-10-2008, 06:54 PM
"R. Scott Belford"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:14 AM, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:

Rather than make this heated, lets try and keep it productive so the

thread becomes helpful rather than offensive.
Thanks, David.* I appreciate the depth and extent of your commitment to FOSS.* It was not my intent to antagonize; I simply wish to give a voice to the unrepresented and overworked educator who doesn't even know what to ask for.* That's what this is about - the average educator.


--scott


--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-10-2008, 07:23 PM
"Jordan Mantha"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:28 AM, R. Scott Belford <scott@belford.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Jordan Mantha <laserjock@ubuntu.com>
> wrote:
> ----8<----snip------
>>
>> I get the impression at times that people think there are a myriad of
>> people paid to work on these issues. The reality is that there has
>> only ever been 1 person paid to work on Edubuntu/LTSP, and in fact
>> that person has been moved to another project for his paid time and is
>> now volunteering like the rest of us to work on Edubuntu. We had a
>> period of time where the primary developers of Edubuntu were basically
>> inactive due to real life situations. I know I personally feel like
>> I've let the community down by not being around for Hardy, but I have
>> real life obligations I can't just shirk to work on software. These
>> are the times when we need people from the user community to step up
>> and maybe try to contribute a bit here and there. I'm somewhat
>> frantically trying to get Intrepid ready for release and Scott
>> Balneaves sounds like he's able to help out more with LTSP bugs. We're
>> planning on having an LTSP Bug Day next week (looks like Wednesday) in
>> #edubuntu and could use all the help we can get (testing, triage,
>> patches, etc.).
>
> -----8<-------snip------
>
> Thanks for your note, Jordan. It is true that a positive, pro-active, and
> constructive direction needs to be assumed. I am not sure that paid staff
> is the key to success or the reason for failure. The 'only one person is
> getting paid' case was made last year during the Feisty debacle.

Hmm, I wasn't really trying to say that paid staff was the key. I was
more trying to say that resources got very low for a while there and
it's not that developers don't care or are just ignoring people.

<snip>

> The culture of the debian-edu mailing list is one of momentum and
> organization. I have bugzilla reports, end-user questions, and packaging
> discussions all arrive in my mailbox. Skolelinux has certainly benefitted
> from government sponsorship, but, the philosophy and intent have been
> Focused on a distro requiring one hour or less of support each week by an
> average teacher. With this goal in mind, there is a reason to respond to
> all mailing list queries.

That is a good goal and one that I think we'd all like to see as well.
However, I hate sound like a broken record, but we do need people to
be able to respond. I personally can't do much about LTSP support
because I am not going to pretend I know what I'm doing when it comes
to LTSP as I've only tried it a few times between 2 computers. I'm
more than happy to talk about educational apps, the edubuntu
metapackages and Addon CD, how to get involved with bug triaging or
packaging, etc.

> A bug squashing on IRC next week sounds good. If I have submitted bugs to
> the mailing list but cannot make the IRC meeting, is it still my
> responsibility to handle this bug? Is there a process for known bugs to be
> addressed whether they come from the list or Launchpad?

If you've filed bugs in Launchpad you should be able to interact on
our bug squashing day via the email you receive. We use IRC to
coordinate and discuss how to handle triage tasks, but we still work
on bugs in Launchpad. Bug reporting via mailing list is not very
helpful from a developer perspective for many reasons. Email bug
reports are usually quite lengthy, are often multiple bugs in one,
lack tracking abilities, and easy get lost as the mailing list moves
forward. I realize that reporting bugs can be more difficult than just
sending an email to the list, but if we turn this list into a bug
tracker it's going to be no fun for either reporters or developers.

So here's what I would do. Before next Wednesday, go to
https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs which lists the
packages that Edubuntu is tracking the bugs of. You can
click on individual packages (like ltsp) and see the open bugs. If you
see a bug you're experiencing you can add information as a comment. If
you don't see a bug you're experiencing go ahead and file a new bug.
Keep in mind that we close bugs as they are fixed in the development
release so a bug may be closed because it's fixed in Intrepid but you
might still experience it in Hardy. If you find one of those and it's
really an issue, please let us know and we can add a Hardy task and
work towards getting a fix in hardy-updates.

> All the pieces are in place. I'd like to think that there is nothing but
> good will amongst the communities of users and developers. A little vision
> and follow-through is all we lack.
>
> With Respect

I agree, and thanks.

-Jordan

--
edubuntu-devel mailing list
edubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
 
Old 09-10-2008, 07:23 PM
"Jordan Mantha"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:28 AM, R. Scott Belford <scott@belford.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Jordan Mantha <laserjock@ubuntu.com>
> wrote:
> ----8<----snip------
>>
>> I get the impression at times that people think there are a myriad of
>> people paid to work on these issues. The reality is that there has
>> only ever been 1 person paid to work on Edubuntu/LTSP, and in fact
>> that person has been moved to another project for his paid time and is
>> now volunteering like the rest of us to work on Edubuntu. We had a
>> period of time where the primary developers of Edubuntu were basically
>> inactive due to real life situations. I know I personally feel like
>> I've let the community down by not being around for Hardy, but I have
>> real life obligations I can't just shirk to work on software. These
>> are the times when we need people from the user community to step up
>> and maybe try to contribute a bit here and there. I'm somewhat
>> frantically trying to get Intrepid ready for release and Scott
>> Balneaves sounds like he's able to help out more with LTSP bugs. We're
>> planning on having an LTSP Bug Day next week (looks like Wednesday) in
>> #edubuntu and could use all the help we can get (testing, triage,
>> patches, etc.).
>
> -----8<-------snip------
>
> Thanks for your note, Jordan. It is true that a positive, pro-active, and
> constructive direction needs to be assumed. I am not sure that paid staff
> is the key to success or the reason for failure. The 'only one person is
> getting paid' case was made last year during the Feisty debacle.

Hmm, I wasn't really trying to say that paid staff was the key. I was
more trying to say that resources got very low for a while there and
it's not that developers don't care or are just ignoring people.

<snip>

> The culture of the debian-edu mailing list is one of momentum and
> organization. I have bugzilla reports, end-user questions, and packaging
> discussions all arrive in my mailbox. Skolelinux has certainly benefitted
> from government sponsorship, but, the philosophy and intent have been
> Focused on a distro requiring one hour or less of support each week by an
> average teacher. With this goal in mind, there is a reason to respond to
> all mailing list queries.

That is a good goal and one that I think we'd all like to see as well.
However, I hate sound like a broken record, but we do need people to
be able to respond. I personally can't do much about LTSP support
because I am not going to pretend I know what I'm doing when it comes
to LTSP as I've only tried it a few times between 2 computers. I'm
more than happy to talk about educational apps, the edubuntu
metapackages and Addon CD, how to get involved with bug triaging or
packaging, etc.

> A bug squashing on IRC next week sounds good. If I have submitted bugs to
> the mailing list but cannot make the IRC meeting, is it still my
> responsibility to handle this bug? Is there a process for known bugs to be
> addressed whether they come from the list or Launchpad?

If you've filed bugs in Launchpad you should be able to interact on
our bug squashing day via the email you receive. We use IRC to
coordinate and discuss how to handle triage tasks, but we still work
on bugs in Launchpad. Bug reporting via mailing list is not very
helpful from a developer perspective for many reasons. Email bug
reports are usually quite lengthy, are often multiple bugs in one,
lack tracking abilities, and easy get lost as the mailing list moves
forward. I realize that reporting bugs can be more difficult than just
sending an email to the list, but if we turn this list into a bug
tracker it's going to be no fun for either reporters or developers.

So here's what I would do. Before next Wednesday, go to
https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs which lists the
packages that Edubuntu is tracking the bugs of. You can
click on individual packages (like ltsp) and see the open bugs. If you
see a bug you're experiencing you can add information as a comment. If
you don't see a bug you're experiencing go ahead and file a new bug.
Keep in mind that we close bugs as they are fixed in the development
release so a bug may be closed because it's fixed in Intrepid but you
might still experience it in Hardy. If you find one of those and it's
really an issue, please let us know and we can add a Hardy task and
work towards getting a fix in hardy-updates.

> All the pieces are in place. I'd like to think that there is nothing but
> good will amongst the communities of users and developers. A little vision
> and follow-through is all we lack.
>
> With Respect

I agree, and thanks.

-Jordan

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-10-2008, 10:01 PM
"R. Scott Belford"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Jordan Mantha <laserjock@ubuntu.com> wrote:


So here's what I would do. Before next Wednesday, go to

https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs which lists the

packages that Edubuntu is tracking the bugs of. You can

click on individual packages (like ltsp) and see the open bugs. If you

see a bug you're experiencing you can add information as a comment. If

you don't see a bug you're experiencing go ahead and file a new bug.

Keep in mind that we close bugs as they are fixed in the development

release so a bug may be closed because it's fixed in Intrepid but you

might still experience it in Hardy. If you find one of those and it's

really an issue, please let us know and we can add a Hardy task and

work towards getting a fix in hardy-updates.
Splendid.* Thanks, Jordan.* So this is what the developers need from the users in order to advance the project and stabilize outstanding issues?* I doubt that I can make the IRC, but I can do my part at launchpad.


Is the following still the goal of the Edubuntu Project?* If so, perhaps some 'bugs' may be seen as feature requests or feature clarifications.

"Edubuntu aims to be an Ubuntu variant suitable for classroom use.
The aim is to deliver a turnkey solution that enables time-poor
educators with mid-range technical skills to set up a computer lab
and/or establish an online learning environment with as few clicks as
humanly possible, then administer that environment without having to
significantly expand their technical skills. Centralized management of
configuration, users, and processes together with facilities for
working collaboratively in a classroom setting are its principal design
goals. Equally important is the gathering together of the best
available free software and digital materials for education under one
distro.



Edubuntu and Ubuntu are not meant to be seen as distinct projects;
Edubuntu is part of the Ubuntu project, and they are both part of one
development team that contributes to the whole. Edubuntu is Ubuntu with
a different default setup."

from the edubuntu-users mailing list description.

Aloha

--scott

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-11-2008, 10:37 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

hi,
On Mi, 2008-09-10 at 09:37 -0700, Jordan Mantha wrote:
> The reality is that there has
> only ever been 1 person paid to work on Edubuntu/LTSP, and in fact
> that person has been moved to another project for his paid time and is
> now volunteering like the rest of us to work on Edubuntu.

that person would be me ...

i'd like to note beyond the fact that i did the initial edubuntu
deveolpment i was also the lead developer and upstream of ltsp until the
7.10 development cycle where fedora joined ltsp upstream development and
we turned ltsp upstream over to a kind of consortium made up by
participants of all the involved distros, which indeed makes ltsp move
slower as we have to regard the need of all parties, have to accept
changes that are not necessarily helping our particular distro but
improve the overall experience at some point if all bugs are shaken
out ... imagine a dictatorship vs democracy, the first years of ltsp5
development i could make the decisions for ubuntu ltsp only while since
7.10 i try to keep the pieces in shape and working for ubuntu after
others made the changes ...

one thing coming up often here since 7.10 are apps hanging around ...
please note *this is usually a faulty app* i made various requests to
the people complaining to please file bugs about the apps not exiting
properly if their parent session goes away (the first request for that
was around the 7.10 development cycle over a year ago) so i can point
the app developers to fix these bugs (whih they will gratefully do). up
to today not a single bug for any of the apps was put into launchpad
only many hackish workarounds came up that kill apps on startup in very
intrusive ways ...

another thing i asked for as well in the 7.10 cycle (where i still could
invest worktime into edubuntu) various times was to help testing *during
the development cycle* at a time where i can fix bugs, my last request
got me two new testers, mainly David van Asche and Asmo Koskinen ... you
will notice that these two are the guys who apparently dont have any
problems at all, both deploying huge setups of edubuntu with ltsp. with
hardy our policies changed and i will be able to apply fixes even to the
released version, that will give you the opportunity to help improving
the LTS release to your requirement, all this needs is that developers
get clear bugs, i will do what i can to help out here but please note
that my time is very limted, beyond me there is Jordan Mantha around to
help with educational apps and Scott Balneaves can help with the ltsp
side of things, but what we need for that is a set of clear bugs to work
on, ranting or blaming anyone for anything wont get us anywhere.

if we want edubuntu to stay around, please help, file bugs and lets
clearly identify whats at fault and just fix it ...

gnome, openoffice and firefox being ignorant to multiuser setups
upstream is a fact since years we wont easily change (check their ML
archives if you dont belive me). the latter two simply through the fact
that their core development happens on windows, often people forget that
they are ports to linux. gnome started to listen to the complaints a
while ago and starts to make attenpts towards multi user support (but
trying to do it the right way takes its time and will still take more,
consolekit and friends are a first good step). this is simply nothing
*we* can change but we can help pointing out the problems to upstream.

i know scott and jordan are planning bugdays soon if you want ltsp or
edubuntu be in good shape, please help them ...
if you think fedora is better for you, feel free to try it out, but bear
in mind that the ltsp code we all use in debian, fedora, ubuntu and
gentoo is identical, we all work on the same code since a year and in
the end provide the same scripts to our users for running thin
clients ...

i'm personally a bit disappointed not having as much time anymore as i
did for edubuntu and was also hoping the upstream changes in ltsp with
new distros joining the development wouldnt have any effect on the end
user experience but that apparently was the case. all i can do here is
beg you guys to help out and help compensating my missing time, i will
do what i can but have full time duties in other areas and the day only
has 24h... putting blames on people or ranting wont help, we *can* do
something for hardy as well as we can for intrepid but it needs proper
identification of the problems and proper bugs filed.

ciao
oli
--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-11-2008, 11:35 AM
"kjetil knudsen"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

one thing coming up often here since 7.10 are apps hanging around ...

please note *this is usually a faulty app* i made various requests to

the people complaining to please file bugs about the apps not exiting

properly if their parent session goes away (the first request for that

was around the 7.10 development cycle over a year ago) so i can point

the app developers to fix these bugs (whih they will gratefully do). up

to today not a single bug for any of the apps was put into launchpad

only many hackish workarounds came up that kill apps on startup in very

intrusive ways ...
*First of all. Thank you for all your work. Our school has been using Linux for the last 5 years now because it is simply the only reasonable thing to do. First we tried Skolelinux, but we decided that K12LTSP and Fedora suited our needs better. And now we decided that Edubuntu would be the right choice for our school. Even with all the problems we have encountered I still think that Edubuntu has much to contribute regarding our school, pupils and staff. And while I am writing this I really hope that we are not forced to go back to K12LTSP with LTSP 4.2. Many of our daily problems are as mentioned before, the apps hanging around. I have not the knowledge, nor the knowhow how this should be fixed. The same problem occured however in K12LTSP. But Eric Harrison wrote a simple script that killed the apps hanging around everytime a user loged in. It was dirty, but it worked. No apps hanging around in the system. What I do not understand is why there is not a similar script in Edubuntu that works, even if it is dirty? It would really helped us out a lot..." Pkill -u user" does a fine job killing the left-behind apps for the specified user. Why can not this be integrated when a user logs out? Forgive me if I sound ignorant..... I understand that this would not be a real fix, but hey... If it works...


Again.. Thank you for all your effort and time. We are all very grateful..

Kjetil Knudsen
Grødem skole, Norway.

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 
Old 09-11-2008, 11:50 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

hi,
On Do, 2008-09-11 at 13:35 +0200, kjetil knudsen wrote:
>
>
>
> one thing coming up often here since 7.10 are apps hanging
> around ...
> please note *this is usually a faulty app* i made various
> requests to
> the people complaining to please file bugs about the apps not
> exiting
> properly if their parent session goes away (the first request
> for that
> was around the 7.10 development cycle over a year ago) so i
> can point
> the app developers to fix these bugs (whih they will
> gratefully do). up
> to today not a single bug for any of the apps was put into
> launchpad
> only many hackish workarounds came up that kill apps on
> startup in very
> intrusive ways ...

> dirty? It would really helped us out a lot..." Pkill -u user" does a
> fine job killing the left-behind apps for the specified user. Why can
> not this be integrated when a user logs out? Forgive me if I sound
> ignorant..... I understand that this would not be a real fix, but
> hey... If it works...

so if you are able to use pkill, you are obviously able to identify the
apps hanging around, how about filing bugs for them then

Gideon Romm made a small script for running a pkill in a slightly less
intrusive way at the ltsp hackfest two months ago, we could include it
for hardy.

the big probelm i have is that the actual problem will never be fixed
because running the pkill will not expose any hanging apps anymore at
all, i'd happily add this script to a release *after* i recieved enough
feedback from testers so even though we dont fix the problem immediately
we at least identify the apps, i refuse to do so *unless* we have them
identified for the above reasons ...
so pretty please, everyone who sees hanging apps, file bugs for them,
feel free to subscribe me to the bugs (do not assign them to me please)
so i can assign them to teh right people and poke them about fixes ...

if i see *any* movement i'll happily include the script ... but please
understand that i wont simply hide breakage and lose the opportinity to
fix them forever through simply adding a hack.

btw, i'm subscribed to the list, no need to CC me

thanks for the feedback...

ciao
oli

--
edubuntu-users mailing list
edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 06:53 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org