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Old 09-09-2008, 06:55 PM
Gerald Drouillard
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Asmo Koskinen wrote:
> kjetil knudsen kirjoitti:
>
>> I see that you are using
>> true thin clients that works well. We have a lot of compaq-desktops that
>> we use as thin-clients. They all have 128-512 MB ram.
>
> I have tested (very lightly, just here home) different kind of thin
> clients. LTSP5 needs good graphic adaptor. Better you have, more you can
> get out of LTSP5 and also these new widescreen LCD monitors.
>
> You can see difference.
>
> HP t5125 + 20" LCD (openSUSE need 256 mem for LTSP5, HP t5125 drops out)
> http://asmokoskinen.blip.tv/file/1181073/
>
Did you install xorg-driver-fglrx on the server?

--
Regards
--------------------------------------
Gerald Drouillard
Technology Architect
Drouillard & Associates, Inc.
http://www.Drouillard.biz

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Old 09-09-2008, 06:57 PM
Asmo Koskinen
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Richard Doyle kirjoitti:

> Are you using LDM_DIRECTX=yes ?

Yes, here are my lts.conf files for master and slave servers.

http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5-Mantykangas/ltsp-master/lts.conf
http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5-Mantykangas/ltsp-slave/lts.conf

They are same ;-).

I have also made this for Firefox (3.0.1).

http://www.mail-archive.com/edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com/msg04351.html

Here is something to watch, htop for both servers on the other day.

http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5-Mantykangas/htop-master.png
http://www.arkki.info/howto/Wiki/LTSP5-Mantykangas/htop-slave.png

Best Regards Asmo Koskinen.

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:05 PM
Asmo Koskinen
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Gerald Drouillard kirjoitti:

> Did you install xorg-driver-fglrx on the server?

I think not ;-). Have to check that out ;-).

Best Regards Asmo Koskinen.

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Old 09-09-2008, 10:34 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Asmo is certainly not the only person. I know of at least 10 live
deployments that have no problems with ubuntu/edubuntu. I'm running
pentium 2 500mhz with 128 mb ram as the majority of my thin clients
(must be a good 8-10 years old) and they run like clockwork... the
problems almost always have to do with server configuration and how
the ltsp 5 has been setup there... If you believe jumping to another
distro is going to solve your problems, think again. LTSP is now
distro independent and whatever problems you run into on ed/ubuntu you
are likely to run into on another distro (probably with many more
problems jumping at you first.) Ubuntu is the ONLY distro that has
LTSP as out of the box as it does.

If there are issues with 8.04, then please, by all means note them
down... file a bug report... or at least list them here so we can help
go through them...

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:51 PM, R. Scott Belford <scott@hosef.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Asmo Koskinen <asmo.koskinen@arkki.info>
> wrote:
>>
>> HP t5125, 5135.
>>
>>
>> http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/12454-12454-321959-338927-89307-472257.html
>>
>> http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/12454-12454-321959-338927-89307-3341342.html
>
> Edubuntu has had an adverse and destructive effect on the adoption of Free
> and Open Source Software in schools.
>
> I think Asmo is the only person who has had success with Ubunut/Edubuntu,
> and the brand new clients are a factor. Many of us use older computers as
> thin clients. The Ubu/Edu documentation has been inconsistent on what thin
> clients are supported. I have not yet looked at the LTS.CONF file for
> Hardy, but it is likely a culprit in performance.
>
> The question is what to do now. Eric Harrison is not as active with the
> K12LTSP - and the K12LTSP is no more - it is becoming a Fedora Spin with
> RedHat sponsorship. Warren Togami, fedora founder, is actively involved
> with this. It is not ready for production, but bugs are being sought and
> squashed.
>
> Debian-edu, aka Skolelinux, has a responsive mailing list, polite
> developers, and a community will to do good in a responsible way. Perhaps
> Ubuntu would be wise to build on this element of the Debian community, too.
>
> The Hardy problems existed in Feisty. 7.04 was the only acceptable
> thin-client server release. *NOTHING* critical in 7.10 appears to have been
> addressed in 8.04 in spite of the heavy volume of traffic on this list.
>
> Until someone upstream in the Ubu/Edu projects takes a pro-active and
> cooperative stance, Canonical will continue to abuse the good work of its
> education predecessors by falsely claiming to have a community-based
> solution without the community.
>
> I still volunteer to run the lab that prompted Warren to start the Fedora
> project in Hawaii. It was a thin client lab until we moved to 7.10. This
> completely destroyed the school's taste for thin clients. Now we use
> stand-alone workstations with central authentication.
>
> --scott
>
>
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
>
>

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Old 09-09-2008, 10:43 PM
"R. Scott Belford"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

Asmo is certainly not the only person. I know of at least 10 live


deployments that have no problems with ubuntu/edubuntu. I'm running

pentium 2 500mhz with 128 mb ram as the majority of my thin clients

(must be a good 8-10 years old) and they run like clockwork... the

problems almost always have to do with server configuration and how

the ltsp 5 has been setup there... If you believe jumping to another

distro is going to solve your problems, think again. LTSP is now

distro independent and whatever problems you run into on ed/ubuntu you

are likely to run into on another distro (probably with many more

problems jumping at you first.) Ubuntu is the ONLY distro that has

LTSP as out of the box as it does.
Those are some pretty strong claims about the performance of other distros out of the box.

What version of ubuntu/edubuntu are you using, and how much did you have to tweak your lts.conf file?


What is your experience level with the K12LTSP, either Fedora or CentOS based?

What is your experience level with DebianEdu aka Skolelinux?





If there are issues with 8.04, then please, by all means note them

down... file a bug report... or at least list them here so we can help

go through them...
Have you seen the littany of issues regarding 8.04, many of which seem to linger from 7.10, on this list?* I believe they have been clearly and repeatedly stated.

--scott



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Old 09-09-2008, 11:21 PM
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

---- David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:
> Asmo is certainly not the only person. I know of at least 10 live
> deployments that have no problems with ubuntu/edubuntu. I'm running
> pentium 2 500mhz with 128 mb ram as the majority of my thin clients
> (must be a good 8-10 years old) and they run like clockwork... the
> problems almost always have to do with server configuration and how
> the ltsp 5 has been setup there... If you believe jumping to another
> distro is going to solve your problems, think again. LTSP is now
> distro independent and whatever problems you run into on ed/ubuntu you
> are likely to run into on another distro (probably with many more
> problems jumping at you first.) Ubuntu is the ONLY distro that has
> LTSP as out of the box as it does.
>
> If there are issues with 8.04, then please, by all means note them
> down... file a bug report... or at least list them here so we can help
> go through them...
>
>

Read Scott's email from August 24th.
He raised several valid points.

I'm currently running 2 8.04 servers for 70 (6020P & older disklessworkstations.com clients)
I've run into issues with sound, as well as thin clients locking up.
Going from K12LTSP to 7.04 last year was tough, and I had hoped that this summer's upgrade to 8.04 would make things easier, but it I think I traded my old problems for new ones.

It seems that traffic on this list as well as the irc channel on freenode slowed considerably once ltsp moved from edubuntu into standard ubuntu.

If k12linux picks up momentum us school ltsp users almost have to move to it just to stay part of whichever community is larger for help.

At least no one has started complaining about the crossposting between this and the k12OSN list.

Luis




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Old 09-10-2008, 09:05 AM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

I've taken a look into the email in question, and can answer some
questions. I in no way am affiliated with canonical, though I do work
within the ed/ubuntu community. Firstly, Scott mentions not using
8.04, clearly you should upgrade as that will solve 50% of your
issues... the other issues are all valid, and I guess the problem is
one of communication between developers and end users. Lets address
the issues seperately:

- The gnome lingering process problem

Agreed.. this is a heavy issue that is a pain in the behind, but it is
not LTSP centric... the fault lies with gnome. Right now the
workaround is a watchdog script, which seems to work ok, but is by no
means a fix... This needs to be tackled from the gnome side... Right
now the solution is in monitoring and ending misbehaving processes
through the script or by hand via pkill -u or killall. It makes sense
to clean all processes at least 1 time per day... consider it
maintenance.

- tcm (thin client manager)

Indeed this no longer exists, and I believe it has been discussed
about here before on various occasions. Italc has replaced thin client
manager as the software that should be run to control thin clients
from a centralised location. The new documentation reflects this (new
in intrepid ibex), and I agree it was confusing, but a quick jump to a
channel of importance (#ltsp primarily, but also #edubuntu) will give
you the answers you need. Or a search in google. To install it is
apt-get install italc-client

- port forwarding

The reason this is not built in is because no one knows how the
network structure looks like at a particular location. There could be
many different setups, but the documentation tells you how to easily
do this in the most common way (this has been in documentation for a
while now):

Setting network forwarding
Primary server will act as an network gateway for other servers. With
this configuration, other workstations will be able to
access the network behind the primary server. Here is an example of
script that setup the network forwarding. We put it in
/etc/network/if-up.d/forward.sh, and make it executable. The script
will run at each network start. In this example, the primary
server private IP is 192.168.0.1. It must be adapted for the IP address used.
#!/bin/bash
echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
echo Setting up the forwarding
LAN_IP_NET="192.168.0.1/24"
LAN_NIC="eth1"
OUT_NIC="eth0"
iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s $LAN_IP_NET -o $OUT_NIC -j MASQUERADE
iptables -A FORWARD -j ACCEPT -i $LAN_NIC -s $LAN_IP_NET
iptables -A FORWARD -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT

- speaking to canonical employee

Well, you may have spoken to canonical employees, but just like in any
larger company, unless you talk to the ones involved in the area you
are asking about, you'll probably get blank stares or answers that
don't fit. You did not speak to any educational or ltsp canonical
developer. I guarantee that if you search a little you'll quickly find
out who they are. If you are serious about your issues and concerns,
then why not try to contact one of these developers directly?

- lts.conf file

This is where LTSP gets complex, and its the same across ALL
distributions... If you don't know how to create a file, then it is
not recommended you touch a lts.conf file. Increasingly, reliance on
this file has been diminished to the point that in MOST setups the
lts.conf file is not really required. But if it is, a quick read
through the documentation will show you an example file and where it
should go.

- upgrading from earlier versions

Finally, I would recommend against upgrading, but instead noting the
setup you have and migrating that to a new already working ltsp setup.
If you have ubuntu 7.10, then installing a new 8.04 from the alternate
cd is the best practice that will cause the least pain... and if you
have problems... go to the #ltsp channel, where you will probably get
an answer to any question within minutes. oh, and for the record...
the devs do read this list...

Kind Regards,
David Van Assche

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM, <monteslu@cox.net> wrote:
>
> ---- David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Asmo is certainly not the only person. I know of at least 10 live
>> deployments that have no problems with ubuntu/edubuntu. I'm running
>> pentium 2 500mhz with 128 mb ram as the majority of my thin clients
>> (must be a good 8-10 years old) and they run like clockwork... the
>> problems almost always have to do with server configuration and how
>> the ltsp 5 has been setup there... If you believe jumping to another
>> distro is going to solve your problems, think again. LTSP is now
>> distro independent and whatever problems you run into on ed/ubuntu you
>> are likely to run into on another distro (probably with many more
>> problems jumping at you first.) Ubuntu is the ONLY distro that has
>> LTSP as out of the box as it does.
>>
>> If there are issues with 8.04, then please, by all means note them
>> down... file a bug report... or at least list them here so we can help
>> go through them...
>>
>>
>
> Read Scott's email from August 24th.
> He raised several valid points.
>
> I'm currently running 2 8.04 servers for 70 (6020P & older disklessworkstations.com clients)
> I've run into issues with sound, as well as thin clients locking up.
> Going from K12LTSP to 7.04 last year was tough, and I had hoped that this summer's upgrade to 8.04 would make things easier, but it I think I traded my old problems for new ones.
>
> It seems that traffic on this list as well as the irc channel on freenode slowed considerably once ltsp moved from edubuntu into standard ubuntu.
>
> If k12linux picks up momentum us school ltsp users almost have to move to it just to stay part of whichever community is larger for help.
>
> At least no one has started complaining about the crossposting between this and the k12OSN list.
>
> Luis
>
>
>
>

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Old 09-10-2008, 09:17 AM
Dean Mumby
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

David Van Assche wrote:
> I've taken a look into the email in question, and can answer some
> questions. I in no way am affiliated with canonical, though I do work
> within the ed/ubuntu community. Firstly, Scott mentions not using
> 8.04, clearly you should upgrade as that will solve 50% of your
> issues... the other issues are all valid, and I guess the problem is
> one of communication between developers and end users. Lets address
> the issues seperately:
>
> - The gnome lingering process problem
>
> Agreed.. this is a heavy issue that is a pain in the behind, but it is
> not LTSP centric... the fault lies with gnome. Right now the
> workaround is a watchdog script, which seems to work ok, but is by no
> means a fix... This needs to be tackled from the gnome side... Right
> now the solution is in monitoring and ending misbehaving processes
> through the script or by hand via pkill -u or killall. It makes sense
> to clean all processes at least 1 time per day... consider it
> maintenance.
>
A point that seems to be avoided is why is this such a prevalent issue
now ? The fact is more people are experiencing hard crashes and are left
in a situation where they cant use the terminals any more until an admin
kills processes. I think the reason for these crashes needs to be
explored as it seems everything is fine in small deployments and when
thin clients have more ram , maybe it has to do with the nbd server and
all the "swap files" that are created , but certainly there are a number
of us HP T5xxx users that are very frustrated
> - tcm (thin client manager)
>
> Indeed this no longer exists, and I believe it has been discussed
> about here before on various occasions. Italc has replaced thin client
> manager as the software that should be run to control thin clients
> from a centralised location. The new documentation reflects this (new
> in intrepid ibex), and I agree it was confusing, but a quick jump to a
> channel of importance (#ltsp primarily, but also #edubuntu) will give
> you the answers you need. Or a search in google. To install it is
> apt-get install italc-client
>
> - port forwarding
>
> The reason this is not built in is because no one knows how the
> network structure looks like at a particular location. There could be
> many different setups, but the documentation tells you how to easily
> do this in the most common way (this has been in documentation for a
> while now):
>
> Setting network forwarding
> Primary server will act as an network gateway for other servers. With
> this configuration, other workstations will be able to
> access the network behind the primary server. Here is an example of
> script that setup the network forwarding. We put it in
> /etc/network/if-up.d/forward.sh, and make it executable. The script
> will run at each network start. In this example, the primary
> server private IP is 192.168.0.1. It must be adapted for the IP address used.
> #!/bin/bash
> echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
> echo Setting up the forwarding
> LAN_IP_NET="192.168.0.1/24"
> LAN_NIC="eth1"
> OUT_NIC="eth0"
> iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s $LAN_IP_NET -o $OUT_NIC -j MASQUERADE
> iptables -A FORWARD -j ACCEPT -i $LAN_NIC -s $LAN_IP_NET
> iptables -A FORWARD -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
>
> - speaking to canonical employee
>
> Well, you may have spoken to canonical employees, but just like in any
> larger company, unless you talk to the ones involved in the area you
> are asking about, you'll probably get blank stares or answers that
> don't fit. You did not speak to any educational or ltsp canonical
> developer. I guarantee that if you search a little you'll quickly find
> out who they are. If you are serious about your issues and concerns,
> then why not try to contact one of these developers directly?
>
> - lts.conf file
>
> This is where LTSP gets complex, and its the same across ALL
> distributions... If you don't know how to create a file, then it is
> not recommended you touch a lts.conf file. Increasingly, reliance on
> this file has been diminished to the point that in MOST setups the
> lts.conf file is not really required. But if it is, a quick read
> through the documentation will show you an example file and where it
> should go.
>
> - upgrading from earlier versions
>
> Finally, I would recommend against upgrading, but instead noting the
> setup you have and migrating that to a new already working ltsp setup.
> If you have ubuntu 7.10, then installing a new 8.04 from the alternate
> cd is the best practice that will cause the least pain... and if you
> have problems... go to the #ltsp channel, where you will probably get
> an answer to any question within minutes. oh, and for the record...
> the devs do read this list...
>
> Kind Regards,
> David Van Assche
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM, <monteslu@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> ---- David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Asmo is certainly not the only person. I know of at least 10 live
>>> deployments that have no problems with ubuntu/edubuntu. I'm running
>>> pentium 2 500mhz with 128 mb ram as the majority of my thin clients
>>> (must be a good 8-10 years old) and they run like clockwork... the
>>> problems almost always have to do with server configuration and how
>>> the ltsp 5 has been setup there... If you believe jumping to another
>>> distro is going to solve your problems, think again. LTSP is now
>>> distro independent and whatever problems you run into on ed/ubuntu you
>>> are likely to run into on another distro (probably with many more
>>> problems jumping at you first.) Ubuntu is the ONLY distro that has
>>> LTSP as out of the box as it does.
>>>
>>> If there are issues with 8.04, then please, by all means note them
>>> down... file a bug report... or at least list them here so we can help
>>> go through them...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Read Scott's email from August 24th.
>> He raised several valid points.
>>
>> I'm currently running 2 8.04 servers for 70 (6020P & older disklessworkstations.com clients)
>> I've run into issues with sound, as well as thin clients locking up.
>> Going from K12LTSP to 7.04 last year was tough, and I had hoped that this summer's upgrade to 8.04 would make things easier, but it I think I traded my old problems for new ones.
>>
>> It seems that traffic on this list as well as the irc channel on freenode slowed considerably once ltsp moved from edubuntu into standard ubuntu.
>>
>> If k12linux picks up momentum us school ltsp users almost have to move to it just to stay part of whichever community is larger for help.
>>
>> At least no one has started complaining about the crossposting between this and the k12OSN list.
>>
>> Luis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Old 09-10-2008, 11:27 AM
"Todd O'Bryan"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:05 AM, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com> wrote:


I've taken a look into the email in question, and can answer some

questions. I in no way am affiliated with canonical, though I do work

within the ed/ubuntu community. Firstly, Scott mentions not using

8.04, clearly you should upgrade as that will solve 50% of your

issues... the other issues are all valid, and I guess the problem is

one of communication between developers and end users. Lets address

the issues seperately:



- The gnome lingering process problem



Agreed.. this is a heavy issue that is a pain in the behind, but it is

not LTSP centric... the fault lies with gnome. Right now the

workaround is a watchdog script, which seems to work ok, but is by no

means a fix... This needs to be tackled from the gnome side... Right

now the solution is in monitoring and ending misbehaving processes

through the script or by hand via pkill -u or killall. It makes sense

to clean all processes at least 1 time per day... consider it

maintenance.


I'm actually running the gnome-watchdog package that Philipp Hanselmann wrote. It's not working, he's never tested it on 8.04, so it's hardly his fault. I sent an email asking if I had to do something extra to make it start working and got no answer.



Also, note that, useful as gnome-watchdog is, it's not in any of the official repos. Given that it's essential, someone official should have adopted it and pulled it into the repos.

Todd
*





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Old 09-10-2008, 01:03 PM
"David Van Assche"
 
Default Is it just me, or is LTSP a mess?

How do u know it is not working? can u paste some data?

David Van Assche

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Todd O'Bryan <toddobryan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:05 AM, David Van Assche <dvanassche@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I've taken a look into the email in question, and can answer some
>> questions. I in no way am affiliated with canonical, though I do work
>> within the ed/ubuntu community. Firstly, Scott mentions not using
>> 8.04, clearly you should upgrade as that will solve 50% of your
>> issues... the other issues are all valid, and I guess the problem is
>> one of communication between developers and end users. Lets address
>> the issues seperately:
>>
>> - The gnome lingering process problem
>>
>> Agreed.. this is a heavy issue that is a pain in the behind, but it is
>> not LTSP centric... the fault lies with gnome. Right now the
>> workaround is a watchdog script, which seems to work ok, but is by no
>> means a fix... This needs to be tackled from the gnome side... Right
>> now the solution is in monitoring and ending misbehaving processes
>> through the script or by hand via pkill -u or killall. It makes sense
>> to clean all processes at least 1 time per day... consider it
>> maintenance.
>
> I'm actually running the gnome-watchdog package that Philipp Hanselmann
> wrote. It's not working, he's never tested it on 8.04, so it's hardly his
> fault. I sent an email asking if I had to do something extra to make it
> start working and got no answer.
>
> Also, note that, useful as gnome-watchdog is, it's not in any of the
> official repos. Given that it's essential, someone official should have
> adopted it and pulled it into the repos.
>
> Todd
>
>

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