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-   -   How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-user/98110-how-complain-about-slow-isp-checked-mtr.html)

"Dotan Cohen" 05-30-2008 02:24 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
My internet connection keeps timing out. I check my connection to
google with mtr and this is what I got:
http://dotancohen.com/images/examples/bezeq.png

The ISP's name is Bezeq International, so the host bezeqint is
obviously them. Now that _I_ see that the packet loss is at their end,
what terms do I use to complain? I am not a CS major so I don't know
the proper terminology to describe to the script-reading monkey that
will answer the phone that she needs to get an engineer to fix it at
their end, because the problem is obviously there and not here. Is
there anything else that I should check before I complain?

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Bob Cox 05-30-2008 03:30 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 17:24:16 +0300, Dotan Cohen (dotancohen@gmail.com) wrote:

> My internet connection keeps timing out. I check my connection to
> google with mtr and this is what I got:
> http://dotancohen.com/images/examples/bezeq.png
>
> The ISP's name is Bezeq International, so the host bezeqint is
> obviously them. Now that _I_ see that the packet loss is at their end,
> what terms do I use to complain? I am not a CS major so I don't know
> the proper terminology to describe to the script-reading monkey that
> will answer the phone that she needs to get an engineer to fix it at
> their end, because the problem is obviously there and not here. Is
> there anything else that I should check before I complain?

It could be that what you are seeing is not necessarily as bad as it
appears, because your ISP may be giving low priority to ICMP (or is
it UDP - not sure?) packets, as used by ping/traceroute, rather than slow
down "real" traffic. (I think mtr is a combination of both of these
tools).

I am seeing something similar but not as severe with my ISP (Zen)

bob@trantor:~$ mtr --report -c 10 www.google.com
HOST: trantor Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
1. router 0.0% 10 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.3 0.0
2. gamiel-dsl1.ls.zen.net.uk 0.0% 10 35.4 36.1 34.3 45.3 3.3
3. nietzsche-ge-0-0-2-204.ls.ze 10.0% 10 34.3 35.5 34.3 36.2 0.6
4. nozick-ae1-0.ls.zen.net.uk 0.0% 10 35.0 36.0 34.9 43.2 2.6
5. lorenz-so-0-1-0-0.te.zen.net 0.0% 10 43.5 44.6 41.5 58.2 5.4
6. 195.66.226.125 0.0% 10 42.0 42.3 41.3 46.3 1.5
7. 209.85.252.76 0.0% 10 42.9 42.6 40.8 48.5 2.2
8. 216.239.43.123 0.0% 10 97.0 57.6 52.6 97.0 13.9
9. 72.14.233.79 0.0% 10 52.6 53.0 52.4 53.9 0.5
10. 216.239.43.34 0.0% 10 52.0 58.3 52.0 64.8 4.8
11. nf-in-f99.google.com 0.0% 10 52.9 53.0 52.5 53.7 0.4


--
Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK.
Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/

"Steve Lamb" 05-30-2008 04:11 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
On Fri, May 30, 2008 7:24 am, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> I am not a CS major so I don't know
> the proper terminology to describe to the script-reading monkey that
> will answer the phone that she needs to get an engineer to fix it at
> their end, because the problem is obviously there and not here.

There isn't any way, really. Most script-monkeys aren't CS majors
either so they aren't capable of understanding that what you're
presenting is not on script. No offense to them, really, since we all
started somewhere. The problem is with the script writers not taking
into account that sometimes it really is their equipment and sometimes
they're really going to get someone knowledgeable on the phone that can
tell them its their equipment. :(

All I can say is submit the MTR report and ask for an escalation to
level 2 or 3 as soon as possible.

--
Steve Lamb


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Mike Bird 05-30-2008 04:15 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
On Fri May 30 2008 07:24:16 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> My internet connection keeps timing out. I check my connection to
> google with mtr and this is what I got:
> http://dotancohen.com/images/examples/bezeq.png
>
> The ISP's name is Bezeq International, so the host bezeqint is
> obviously them. Now that _I_ see that the packet loss is at their end,
> what terms do I use to complain? I am not a CS major so I don't know
> the proper terminology to describe to the script-reading monkey that
> will answer the phone that she needs to get an engineer to fix it at
> their end, because the problem is obviously there and not here. Is
> there anything else that I should check before I complain?

I would tell them that your internet connection keeps timing
out. On the wide open internet backbone tools such as mtr,
ping, tracepath, and traceroute are useful, but consumer DSL
is often filtered (perhaps to reduce DOS attacks) so that
such tools are often hard to interpret.

It's your ISP's job to find out why the connection is timing
out. If they can't or won't, trying to explain "mtr" to them
isn't going to help. (BTW, your "mtr" was bad but not awful
because of the "2.3%" line.)

If you really have to use "mtr", first of all compare a regular
"mtr" with a "mtr -i 10" to see if DOS attacks (and "mtr") are
being filtered.

--Mike Bird


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"Dotan Cohen" 05-30-2008 08:32 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
2008/5/30 Steve Lamb <grey@dmiyu.org>:
> All I can say is submit the MTR report and ask for an escalation to
> level 2 or 3 as soon as possible.

That's what I did. When I finally got a tech, it turned out that I
could access sites in my country, but not outside. Then, to check, the
tech himself tried and could not access out of country websites! He
still refused to escalate the complaint as he did not know how to
check Linux computers other than ping, which of course showed that I
could not connect to international websites.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

"Dotan Cohen" 05-30-2008 08:37 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
2008/5/30 Mike Bird <mgb-debian@yosemite.net>:
> I would tell them that your internet connection keeps timing
> out. On the wide open internet backbone tools such as mtr,
> ping, tracepath, and traceroute are useful, but consumer DSL
> is often filtered (perhaps to reduce DOS attacks) so that
> such tools are often hard to interpret.

I did tell them exactly that.

> It's your ISP's job to find out why the connection is timing
> out. If they can't or won't, trying to explain "mtr" to them
> isn't going to help. (BTW, your "mtr" was bad but not awful
> because of the "2.3%" line.)

Could you elaborate on that? I've stfw but I'm still not quite
proficient with mtr or computers in general.

> If you really have to use "mtr", first of all compare a regular
> "mtr" with a "mtr -i 10" to see if DOS attacks (and "mtr") are
> being filtered.

I suppose that I don't _have_ to use mtr but it is the tool that I've
heard of. I changed the interval time to 10 seconds like you mention,
but I don't see where that helps. Is there a resource that you could
recommend that I read to learn to be more proficient with mtr? Written
for silly end-users like me? Thanks.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

"Dotan Cohen" 05-30-2008 08:38 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
2008/5/31 Jabka Atu <mashrom.head@gmail.com>:
> The question what is exactly the slowness you are talking about ?
> You didn't mention if you are Cable or Adsl but i write about Cable.

It's cable, provided through Hot.

> First off all use the local hot vpn to test if you can download /
> upload with speed you are paing for.

I can.

> find Bezeq's servers and download and upload while having 172.20.x.x
> ip (before entering the user and client.
>
> next download some DVD from mirror.isoc.org.il (debian).
> test your speed if the speed is slower then your account the problem
> is with the ISP.

No speed problems. When I connect, it is fast. It just sometimes timesout.

> Try posting on www.whatsup.co.il since some of the readers are the
> script writers .
>
>
>>
>> http://what-is-what.com
>> http://gibberish.co.il
>> א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>>
>> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>
>
> - --
> - --
> Could you at least use man ?
> Jabka Atu (aka mha13/Mashrom Head) || bsh83.blogspot.com
> - --
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>



--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Mike Bird 05-30-2008 08:54 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
On Fri May 30 2008 13:37:12 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > It's your ISP's job to find out why the connection is timing
> > out. If they can't or won't, trying to explain "mtr" to them
> > isn't going to help. (BTW, your "mtr" was bad but not awful
> > because of the "2.3%" line.)
>
> Could you elaborate on that? I've stfw but I'm still not quite
> proficient with mtr or computers in general.

If an mtr or traceroute or tracepath, after a sufficient number of
iterations, looks like this:

HOP1 20% packet loss
HOP2 30% packet loss
HOP3 2% packet loss
...

- it means that 98-100% of packets are getting to HOP3 and back,
which means that the packet loss at the earlier hops is probably
due to high CPU loads or ICMP rate limiting rather than fundamental
loss of packets in transit. (But there could be more esoteric
causes such as errors in diverse return routes.)

> > If you really have to use "mtr", first of all compare a regular
> > "mtr" with a "mtr -i 10" to see if DOS attacks (and "mtr") are
> > being filtered.
>
> I suppose that I don't _have_ to use mtr but it is the tool that I've
> heard of. I changed the interval time to 10 seconds like you mention,
> but I don't see where that helps.

If you're sending N test packets per second you may be running afoul
of an ISP's anti-DOS-attack filters. By comparing those results with
results obtained at N/10 test packets per second, you can determine
whether this is a likely explanation.

> Is there a resource that you could recommend that I read to learn to
> be more proficient with mtr? Written for silly end-users like me?

Sorry, I don't know of one. "mtr" is a tool. A rough analogy would
be me asking for instructions on how to use a screwdriver when my
car is broken. I would need to understand how the car's systems
work in order to understand how to find out what is wrong and how to
fix it.

There are lots of good introductory networking courses available.
I recommend Cisco's CCNA but you might find others more to your taste.
I won't pretend that CCNA (or even CCNP) will explain the full
implications of "mtr" output, but they'll give you enough background
that you will then be able to understand the implications.

--Mike Bird


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"Dotan Cohen" 05-30-2008 09:50 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
2008/5/30 Mike Bird <mgb-debian@yosemite.net>:
> If an mtr or traceroute or tracepath, after a sufficient number of
> iterations, looks like this:
>
> HOP1 20% packet loss
> HOP2 30% packet loss
> HOP3 2% packet loss
> ...
>
> - it means that 98-100% of packets are getting to HOP3 and back,
> which means that the packet loss at the earlier hops is probably
> due to high CPU loads or ICMP rate limiting rather than fundamental
> loss of packets in transit. (But there could be more esoteric
> causes such as errors in diverse return routes.)

Hmmm, thanks.

> If you're sending N test packets per second you may be running afoul
> of an ISP's anti-DOS-attack filters. By comparing those results with
> results obtained at N/10 test packets per second, you can determine
> whether this is a likely explanation.

Makes sense.

>> Is there a resource that you could recommend that I read to learn to
>> be more proficient with mtr? Written for silly end-users like me?
>
> Sorry, I don't know of one. "mtr" is a tool. A rough analogy would
> be me asking for instructions on how to use a screwdriver when my
> car is broken. I would need to understand how the car's systems
> work in order to understand how to find out what is wrong and how to
> fix it.

A car analogy! +5 Insightful!

> There are lots of good introductory networking courses available.
> I recommend Cisco's CCNA but you might find others more to your taste.
> I won't pretend that CCNA (or even CCNP) will explain the full
> implications of "mtr" output, but they'll give you enough background
> that you will then be able to understand the implications.

I don't intend to take a course, but the local LUG has been asking
about what topics are of interest today. I will let them know that mtr
and basic networking are interesting. Thanks.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

05-30-2008 10:15 PM

How to complain about slow ISP? Checked in mtr
 
> On Fri May 30 2008 13:37:12 Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> > It's your ISP's job to find out why the connection is timing
>> > out. If they can't or won't, trying to explain "mtr" to them
>> > isn't going to help. (BTW, your "mtr" was bad but not awful
>> > because of the "2.3%" line.)
>>
>> Could you elaborate on that? I've stfw but I'm still not quite
>> proficient with mtr or computers in general.
>
> If an mtr or traceroute or tracepath, after a sufficient number of
> iterations, looks like this:
>
> HOP1 20% packet loss
> HOP2 30% packet loss
> HOP3 2% packet loss
> ...
>
> - it means that 98-100% of packets are getting to HOP3 and back,
> which means that the packet loss at the earlier hops is probably
> due to high CPU loads or ICMP rate limiting rather than fundamental
> loss of packets in transit. (But there could be more esoteric
> causes such as errors in diverse return routes.)
>
>> > If you really have to use "mtr", first of all compare a regular
>> > "mtr" with a "mtr -i 10" to see if DOS attacks (and "mtr") are
>> > being filtered.
>>
>> I suppose that I don't _have_ to use mtr but it is the tool that I've
>> heard of. I changed the interval time to 10 seconds like you mention,
>> but I don't see where that helps.
>
> If you're sending N test packets per second you may be running afoul
> of an ISP's anti-DOS-attack filters. By comparing those results with
> results obtained at N/10 test packets per second, you can determine
> whether this is a likely explanation.
>
>> Is there a resource that you could recommend that I read to learn to
>> be more proficient with mtr? Written for silly end-users like me?
>
> Sorry, I don't know of one. "mtr" is a tool. A rough analogy would
> be me asking for instructions on how to use a screwdriver when my
> car is broken. I would need to understand how the car's systems
> work in order to understand how to find out what is wrong and how to
> fix it.
>
> There are lots of good introductory networking courses available.
> I recommend Cisco's CCNA but you might find others more to your taste.
> I won't pretend that CCNA (or even CCNP) will explain the full
> implications of "mtr" output, but they'll give you enough background
> that you will then be able to understand the implications.
>
> --Mike Bird

There is a graphical traceroute program available at changeip.com. In
general though they all work roughly the same way:a packet is sent from
your source to a destination with the Time To Live (TTL) field set=1 and
also sets a timer. The first router decrements the TTL and since it is
now '0' returns an ICMP packet with the router as source. When the
originator gets it he/she knows the identity of the first router and how
long it took. The process repeats until the entire path is traced and the
statistics of each of the hops can be measured. HTH
Larry
>
>
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>



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