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Old 07-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Tom H
 
Default grub2

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:53:30 -0500, Arthur Machlas wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Tom H wrote:
>>> There is now an official grub2 manual:
>>> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html
>>
>> Great news!
>
> Sure...
>
> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that to
> prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2 GRUBs
> in play :-)

This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu
is concerned, there must only be one grub...


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Old 07-09-2010, 10:09 PM
Camaleón
 
Default grub2

On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:27:03 -0400, Tom H wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camaleón wrote:

>> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that
>> to prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2
>> GRUBs in play :-)
>
> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
> concerned, there must only be one grub...

How bad! :-(

There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
(i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
review).

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 07-10-2010, 02:39 PM
Tom H
 
Default grub2

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:27:03 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camaleón wrote:
>
>>> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that
>>> to prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2
>>> GRUBs in play :-)
>>
>> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
>> concerned, there must only be one grub...
>
> How bad! :-(
>
> There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
> (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
> review).

True. You can still access the google-cache of the grub1 manual.


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Old 07-10-2010, 04:40 PM
Paul E Condon
 
Default grub2

On 20100710_103920, Tom H wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Camale?n <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:27:03 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camale?n wrote:
> >
> >>> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that
> >>> to prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2
> >>> GRUBs in play :-)
> >>
> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
> >> concerned, there must only be one grub...
> >
> > How bad! :-(
> >
> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
> > review).
>
> True. You can still access the google-cache of the grub1 manual.

Tom,

How long will the google-cache of this information be available?
Things in Debian don't move on google/internet time, IMHO. They are
generally much slower. Some people will still be struggling with
systems that use the older versions long after Google had given them
much lower status.

In order to help those who are stragglers in the rush to the future,
it would be nice if you could put a hotlink to the GRUB Legacy manual,
which is archived at gnu.org directly after its first mention (which
is in the History section of your document)

--
Paul E Condon
pecondon@mesanetworks.net


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Old 07-10-2010, 07:57 PM
Tom H
 
Default grub2

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Paul E Condon
<pecondon@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
> On 20100710_103920, Tom H wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Camale?n <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:27:03 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camale?n wrote:
>> >
>> >>> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that
>> >>> to prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2
>> >>> GRUBs in play :-)
>> >>
>> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
>> >> concerned, there must only be one grub...
>> >
>> > How bad! :-(
>> >
>> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
>> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
>> > review).
>>
>> True. You can still access the google-cache of the grub1 manual.
>
> How long will the google-cache of this information be available?
> Things in Debian don't move on google/internet time, IMHO. They are
> generally much slower. Some people will still be struggling with
> systems that use the older versions long after Google had given them
> much lower status.
>
> In order to help those who are stragglers in the rush to the future,
> it would be nice if you could put a hotlink to the GRUB Legacy manual,
> which is archived at gnu.org directly after its first mention (which
> is in the History section of your document)

I seem to have given you the impression that I am affiliated with gnu
or grub; I'm not; I'm sorry.

I stumbled upon the link that I posted earlier because I followed my
bookmarked link to the grub1 manual and landed on the grub2 manual...

I have just tried the same search and am unable to find the same
cached document.

The only grub legacy pages that I can find on gnu.org are:
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-legacy-support.en.html
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-legacy.en.html

The first has the following at the top:
'You can browse the documentation of GNU GRUB by "info grub" on your
shell prompt (or use your favorite Info browser, if you don't like
info).'

Strange decision...


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Old 07-10-2010, 08:27 PM
Paul E Condon
 
Default grub2

On 20100710_155720, Tom H wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Paul E Condon
> <pecondon@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
> > On 20100710_103920, Tom H wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Camale?n <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:27:03 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Camale?n wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> But it have been desiderable to name it "GRUB2" or something like that
> >> >>> to prevent old GRUB users to be more confused than they are now with 2
> >> >>> GRUBs in play :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
> >> >> concerned, there must only be one grub...
> >> >
> >> > How bad! :-(
> >> >
> >> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
> >> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
> >> > review).
> >>
> >> True. You can still access the google-cache of the grub1 manual.
> >
> > How long will the google-cache of this information be available?
> > Things in Debian don't move on google/internet time, IMHO. They are
> > generally much slower. Some people will still be struggling with
> > systems that use the older versions long after Google had given them
> > much lower status.
> >
> > In order to help those who are stragglers in the rush to the future,
> > it would be nice if you could put a hotlink to the GRUB Legacy manual,
> > which is archived at gnu.org directly after its first mention (which
> > is in the History section of your document)
>
> I seem to have given you the impression that I am affiliated with gnu
> or grub; I'm not; I'm sorry.
>
> I stumbled upon the link that I posted earlier because I followed my
> bookmarked link to the grub1 manual and landed on the grub2 manual...
>
> I have just tried the same search and am unable to find the same
> cached document.
>
> The only grub legacy pages that I can find on gnu.org are:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-legacy-support.en.html
> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-legacy.en.html
>
> The first has the following at the top:
> 'You can browse the documentation of GNU GRUB by "info grub" on your
> shell prompt (or use your favorite Info browser, if you don't like
> info).'
>
> Strange decision...

I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of your relationship to this
wierdness. And thanks for your added information that access to the
old docs is decaying as we speak. Not good, IMHO.

--
Paul E Condon
pecondon@mesanetworks.net


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Old 07-10-2010, 09:00 PM
Bob Proulx
 
Default grub2

Paul E Condon wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
> > Paul E Condon wrote:
> > > Tom H wrote:
> > >> Camaleón wrote:
> > >> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
> > >> >> concerned, there must only be one grub...
> > >> >
> > >> > How bad! :-(

They have moved on. It doesn't benefit the upstream to keep two
versions active. For better or for worse this is mostly how all
upstreams work.

> > >> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
> > >> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
> > >> > review).

True. But you can always quote the parts to which you are referring.

> > The first has the following at the top:
> > 'You can browse the documentation of GNU GRUB by "info grub" on your
> > shell prompt (or use your favorite Info browser, if you don't like
> > info).'
> >
> > Strange decision...

Why is that strange? The official documentation for GNU projects is
texinfo documentation. It has been this way for a very long time.
Since grub is a GNU package I expect it to follow the GNU guidelines.
With GNU it is all about the source.

Debian on the other hand requires man pages. And therefore Debian
for the most part provides man pages. But sometimes that is difficult
when there aren't any upstream. Some Debian maintainers create them
but not all.

> I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of your relationship to this
> wierdness. And thanks for your added information that access to the
> old docs is decaying as we speak. Not good, IMHO.

Why are you depending upon the html documentation? What is wrong with
the documentation included with the grub package?

$ sudo apt-get install grub-legacy-doc
$ info grub # for Lenny stable
$ info grub-legacy # for Squeeze/Sid

Those that are using the legacy grub have full access to the
documentation for it.

Bob

P.S. Paul, you need to upgrade your system to handle UTF-8
characters. :-) Your mutt seems configured to produce only us-ascii.
Check your send_charset setting. But it may be other problems.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 09:14 PM
Camaleón
 
Default grub2

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:00:53 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:

> Paul E Condon wrote:
>> Tom H wrote:
>> > Paul E Condon wrote:
>> > > Tom H wrote:
>> > >> Camaleón wrote:
>> > >> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far
>> > >> >> as gnu is concerned, there must only be one grub...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > How bad! :-(
>
> They have moved on.

They can "move on" without hurting users >:-(

> It doesn't benefit the upstream to keep two
> versions active. For better or for worse this is mostly how all
> upstreams work.

Hey, we are talking about "documentation", not the full project. GRUB
legacy code will be still available while not actively developed, that's
fine, at least for me it makes sense. But deleting the online
documentacion just because the project is old/deprecated... wow, I cannot
understand that decision.

Anyway, GRUB legacy is still installed by default in some major
distributions (i.e., openSUSE).

>> > >> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is
>> > >> > very useful (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph
>> > >> > or give it a quick review).
>
> True. But you can always quote the parts to which you are referring.

(...)

Not always. I can be on non-linux system without access to any "man grub"
nor "info grub" :-/

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 07-10-2010, 09:42 PM
Tom H
 
Default grub2

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:
> Paul E Condon wrote:
>> Tom H wrote:
>> > Paul E Condon wrote:
>> > > Tom H wrote:
>> > >> Camaleón wrote:
>> > >> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is
>> > >> >> concerned, there must only be one grub...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > How bad! :-(
>
> They have moved on. *It doesn't benefit the upstream to keep two
> versions active. *For better or for worse this is mostly how all
> upstreams work.
>
>> > >> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful
>> > >> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick
>> > >> > review).
>
> True. *But you can always quote the parts to which you are referring.
>
>> > The first has the following at the top:
>> > 'You can browse the documentation of GNU GRUB by "info grub" on your
>> > shell prompt (or use your favorite Info browser, if you don't like
>> > info).'
>> >
>> > Strange decision...
>
> Why is that strange? *The official documentation for GNU projects is
> texinfo documentation. *It has been this way for a very long time.

It is strange because it would have been easy and wold not have been
taxing to have a
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grublegacy.html
page for those people who need to consult or refer others to
grub-legacy's manual online.

Furthermore, many distributions default to grub1, Debian Stable,
Fedora, RHEL and its clones (in the latter case, probably until 2014
for RHEL 5 and, since RHEL 6 is based on F12/F13, probably until 2017
for RHEL 6).


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Old 07-10-2010, 09:46 PM
Tom H
 
Default grub2

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Paul E Condon
<pecondon@mesanetworks.net> wrote:

> I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of your relationship to this
> wierdness.

No problem.

>*And thanks for your added information that access to the
> old docs is decaying as we speak. Not good, IMHO.

You're welcome. Someone more familiar with google might be able to
coax it into leading him/her to the lost manual...


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