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Wally Lepore 10-13-2012 04:40 AM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
Hi Debain Users,

I'm at the final stages of Installing NOT Ubuntu but Debian 'Squeeze'
on my dual-boot system. Windows is installed on the 1st hard drive
(/dev/sda) and Debian will be installed on the 2nd hard drive
(/dev/sdb).

The installer is asking me where I want Grub installed. It says:

-begin-

The following other operating systems have been detected on this
computer: Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional

*****begin*****
If all of your operating systems are listed above, then it should be
safe to install the boot loader to the master boot record of your
first hard drive. When your computer boots, you will be able to choose
to load one of these operating systems or your new system. Install the
GRUB boot loader to the master boot record? No or Yes ?
*****end*****

This is the make it or break it point! Debian is installed on my 2nd
drive (/dev/sdb) NOT the 1st drive (/dev/sda). I also created a
partition on the Debian drive (/dev/sdb) called "/boot". GRUB was to
be installed at this /boot location and then I would go into BIOS
after install and switch the boot order to boot the Debian drive
(/dev/sdb). This would then present the menu for which OS I would like
to boot (Windows or Debian).

If I choose NO to the installer's question as to placing GRUB in the
MBR of the 1st drive. What are my choices as to where to install it? I
don't want to answer "NO" to the question only to advance the
installer to a dead end. I have no idea what may happen next if I
answer NO. Any ideas or suggestions please?

Thank you


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Neal Murphy 10-13-2012 05:10 AM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:40:40 AM Wally Lepore wrote:
> Hi Debain Users,
>
> I'm at the final stages of Installing NOT Ubuntu but Debian 'Squeeze'
> on my dual-boot system. Windows is installed on the 1st hard drive
> (/dev/sda) and Debian will be installed on the 2nd hard drive
> (/dev/sdb).
>
> The installer is asking me where I want Grub installed. It says:
>
> -begin-
>
> The following other operating systems have been detected on this
> computer: Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional
>
> *****begin*****
> If all of your operating systems are listed above, then it should be
> safe to install the boot loader to the master boot record of your
> first hard drive. When your computer boots, you will be able to choose
> to load one of these operating systems or your new system. Install the
> GRUB boot loader to the master boot record? No or Yes ?
> *****end*****
>
> This is the make it or break it point! Debian is installed on my 2nd
> drive (/dev/sdb) NOT the 1st drive (/dev/sda). I also created a
> partition on the Debian drive (/dev/sdb) called "/boot". GRUB was to
> be installed at this /boot location and then I would go into BIOS
> after install and switch the boot order to boot the Debian drive
> (/dev/sdb). This would then present the menu for which OS I would like
> to boot (Windows or Debian).
>
> If I choose NO to the installer's question as to placing GRUB in the
> MBR of the 1st drive. What are my choices as to where to install it? I
> don't want to answer "NO" to the question only to advance the
> installer to a dead end. I have no idea what may happen next if I
> answer NO. Any ideas or suggestions please?
>
> Thank you

You may have no choice. I had lenny installed on sda. I tried to install
squeeze on sdb so I could play with KVM and Xen. Grub *insisted* on installing
itself to sda regardless of what I told it to do. I had to boot lenny's rescue
disk several times to fix grub before I gave up.

You may have to pull the first drive during the install. And, if you're lucky,
your BIOS will set the second drive as the 'first' when you tell it to boot
from it.

If you find no joy, try grub legacy if it's an option. I *know* legacy works;
I can make a bootable ISO that uses grub, copy the ISO contents to a flash
drive and make it bootable with a trivial change, and legacy installs where I
tell it to, not where it decides to because it knows better.

To be clear, my grub2 problems were with v1.97-1.99; I've not tried it since.
And probably won't until legacy truly dies (i.e., RH's patch set falls into
disrepair).

In a short phrase, be prepared to stub your toes some more.


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Joe 10-13-2012 08:14 AM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 00:40:40 -0400
Wally Lepore <wallylepore@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If I choose NO to the installer's question as to placing GRUB in the
> MBR of the 1st drive. What are my choices as to where to install it? I
> don't want to answer "NO" to the question only to advance the
> installer to a dead end. I have no idea what may happen next if I
> answer NO. Any ideas or suggestions please?
>

You have the choice of installing it in the Debian partition, or not at
all. In the latter case, you will need to boot to Debian from a
removable drive. This will quickly become tedious. If you install it in
the Debian partition, you will need to run this bootloader from the
first stage of the Windows bootloader.

What it comes down to is that you need to boot the first stages of one
of your operating systems and select either to continue to boot it or
to boot the other.

If you have Windows up to XP, it is fairly simple either way. Windows
can boot other operating systems easily, though after XP it became much
harder to edit the bootloader (Windows' 'Grub2 moment'). Up to and
including XP, it was a matter of editing the boot.ini text file,
present in the root of the Windows boot partition. Once this file
includes two or more operating system entries, you will be given a
small menu with a timeout and default before Windows starts.

Should you decide to use Grub for the initial boot, and something goes
wrong that can't be fixed, all versions of Windows can have their
MBR bootloaders restored from their installation discs, or from a rescue
disc made from within Windows. Whatever you decide, it is probably
worth making this rescue disc, as you probably don't have the
installation disc. Research how to do this and how to make the repair
before you lose the Internet...

--
Joe


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Brian 10-13-2012 10:10 AM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat 13 Oct 2012 at 00:40:40 -0400, Wally Lepore wrote:

> If I choose NO to the installer's question as to placing GRUB in the
> MBR of the 1st drive. What are my choices as to where to install it? I
> don't want to answer "NO" to the question only to advance the
> installer to a dead end. I have no idea what may happen next if I
> answer NO. Any ideas or suggestions please?

You have chosen not to instll GRUB to /dev/sda because, although it will
work, you do not want the Windows boot loader on this drive to be
replaced. Your desire is to leave this drive untouched. Consequently,
you will not chhoose 'Yes'.

That leaves only one other choice. Either you take it or are condemned
to stare at this screen for all eternity. So, be a devil - press 'No'.
Nothing awful will happen. Promise.

(There are no dead ends using d-i. Pressing the escape key will take you
back to initial menu, where you can abort the install. This is
documented in the Guide).


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Wally Lepore 10-13-2012 04:15 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 6:10 AM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat 13 Oct 2012 at 00:40:40 -0400, Wally Lepore wrote:
>
>> If I choose NO to the installer's question as to placing GRUB in the
>> MBR of the 1st drive. What are my choices as to where to install it? I
>> don't want to answer "NO" to the question only to advance the
>> installer to a dead end. I have no idea what may happen next if I
>> answer NO. Any ideas or suggestions please?
>
> You have chosen not to instll GRUB to /dev/sda because, although it will
> work, you do not want the Windows boot loader on this drive to be
> replaced. Your desire is to leave this drive untouched. Consequently,
> you will not chhoose 'Yes'.
>
> That leaves only one other choice. Either you take it or are condemned
> to stare at this screen for all eternity. So, be a devil - press 'No'.
> Nothing awful will happen. Promise.

Ok, I took your advice and clicked "No" (what other choice did I have
:-) It turned out to be the best suggestion! I was presented with a
new screen that provided an option to install the GRUB boot loader to
another location. Saved!

I only have one shot to get this right or else I have to scrub the
install and start over. Here is what the new screen is asking:

***** BEGIN *****
You need to make the newly installed system bootable, by installing
the GRUB boot loader on a bootable device.

The usual way to do this is to install GRUB on the master boot record
of your first hard drive.

If you prefer, you can install GRUB elsewhere on the drive, or to
another drive, or even to a floppy.

The device can be specified using GRUB's "(hdn,m)" notation, or as a
device in /dev. Below are some examples:

-- "(hd0)" or /dev/hda" will install GRUB to the master boot record of
your first hard drive (IDE);

-- "(hd0,2)" or "(/dev/hda2" will use the second partition of your
first IDE drive;

-- "(hd2,5)" or "/dev/sdc5" will use the first extended partition of
your third drive (SCSI here);

-- "(fd0)" or "/dev/fd0" will install GRUB to a floppy

Device for boot loader installation:
((type the device I want to install GRUB to in the box below - my quote)).
____________________________________
|____________________________________|

***** END *****

I only have one shot at getting this correct. My 2nd hard drive (that
contains Debian) is installed on /dev/sdb and the first partition on
that drive is /boot .

My Debian hard drive (sdb) is partitioned in the following order:

/boot
Swap
/
/var
/usr
/temp
/home

Should I simply type hd1,1 OR /dev/sdb in the above box and
that should install GRUB to the first /boot partition on the 2nd
drive? I want to be sure GRUB gets installed into that first partition
(/boot) on drive /dev/sdb. hd,1,1 seems more accurate than /dev/sdb.

After installation is complete, I will go into my BIOS and change the
first boot device to "sdb" (or as BIOS calls it HDD1). I tested this
BIOS adjustment a few days ago and the procedure worked fine using two
other drives as a test.

Thank you for your patience.


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Wally Lepore 10-13-2012 04:24 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
Wally wrote: (On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM)
> Should I simply type hd1,1 OR /dev/sdb in the above box and
> that should install GRUB to the first /boot partition on the 2nd
> drive?

To clarify, should I include the parenthesis ( ) as in (hd1,1) and
NOT hd1,1 ?

Thank you


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Brian 10-13-2012 04:48 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat 13 Oct 2012 at 12:15:25 -0400, Wally Lepore wrote:

> I only have one shot to get this right or else I have to scrub the
> install and start over.

Please, no! No more installing from you. We are exhausted. :)


> Here is what the new screen is asking:
>
> ***** BEGIN *****
> You need to make the newly installed system bootable, by installing
> the GRUB boot loader on a bootable device.
>
> The usual way to do this is to install GRUB on the master boot record
> of your first hard drive.

You do not want this.

> If you prefer, you can install GRUB elsewhere on the drive, or to
> another drive, or even to a floppy.

You are going to take the 'other drive' route.

> The device can be specified using GRUB's "(hdn,m)" notation, or as a
> device in /dev. Below are some examples:

It doesn't matter whether you use GRUB's notation or the device way.

> I only have one shot at getting this correct. My 2nd hard drive (that
> contains Debian) is installed on /dev/sdb and the first partition on
> that drive is /boot .
>
> My Debian hard drive (sdb) is partitioned in the following order:
>
> /boot
> Swap
> /
> /var
> /usr
> /temp
> /home
>
> Should I simply type hd1,1 OR /dev/sdb in the above box and
> that should install GRUB to the first /boot partition on the 2nd
> drive? I want to be sure GRUB gets installed into that first partition
> (/boot) on drive /dev/sdb. hd,1,1 seems more accurate than /dev/sdb.

Type '/dev/sdb'. Without the quotes. Here is what roughly happens:

Some of GRUB goes in to the MBR.

Some of GRUB is put after the MBR but before the partitions. This is
known as the embedding area.

GRUB writes a load of files (including grub.cfg) to /boot/grub. It is of
no importance or concern that /boot is on a separate partition because
GRUB will find it.

> After installation is complete, I will go into my BIOS and change the
> first boot device to "sdb" (or as BIOS calls it HDD1). I tested this
> BIOS adjustment a few days ago and the procedure worked fine using two
> other drives as a test.

We await your announcement of 'success'.

P.S. It is (hd1,1). You really do not want to do put GRUB there. It is
not the same as /dev/sdb. Honest.


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Wally Lepore 10-13-2012 06:28 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
Wally wrote: (on Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM)
> I only have one shot at getting this correct. My 2nd hard drive (that
> contains Debian) is installed on /dev/sdb and the first partition on
> that drive is /boot .

I just realized something important. When I set my Debian drive (sdb)
for partitioning, I used the 'Manual' setup and chose Logical Volume
Manager (LVM) non-encryption method. I decided I should know and learn
this partition procedure and studied it for two days prior to setting
up the partitions.

The first partition I manually created was /boot and it is NOT a LVM
partition. It can't be. It's not allowed. It can only be a regular
partition.

I set the remaining partitions (swap, /, /usr, /var, /temp, /home) as
LVM partitions (logical volumes).

Although the first partition I created was /boot (set as 'Primary'
with location tagged as 'Beginning' ) it is not what was displayed to
me at the very end for 'Final Partition Review' when partitioning was
completed.

For some reason, in the Debian Installer 'final partition review'
screen it listed all the logical volumes first (swap, /, /usr, /var,
/temp, /home) and then the /dev/sda device (windows) and then followed
by the Debian drive (/dev/sdb) that included the /boot partition
followed by the Primary Volume partition (PV) sdb).

Is this 'Review Partition Layout' screen (displayed for review before
writing to disks) the actual order of partitions on the Debian drive
(sdb)? or is it just a review window?

*******Therefore is /boot really the 'first' partition before I
attempt to enter (hd1,1) or /dev/sdb in the 'device for boot loader
installation' box? ********

If I remember the logical volumes were listed first and then my 1st
hard drive (windows) was listed next (/dev/sda) and then the Debian
drive listed last (/dev/sda) along with its Primary Volume (PV). I'm
searching for a link now that will provided a pictorial view. The
tutorial I for LVM partion setup was from LinuxBSDos.com but the site
is down right now and won't provide me the url. The title of the
tutorial is:

Manual LVM configuration guide for Debian 6 - LinuxBSDos.com (it is 3 pages)

Here is the best sample overview screen from a Fedora install that I
could find. It only uses one hard drive for the install (I'm using 2
hdd's in a dual boot) but you can see the logical volumes are listed
'first' before the /boot partition (under /dev/sda) in the 'final
partition review' screen.

http://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2010/red-hat-6-installation-guide-rhel-6-install-screenshots/
(Scroll to step 13: 'Review partition layout').

In other words, does step: 13 in the 'Review Partition Layout' screen
for fedora (above) actually MIRROR the actual partition location order
on the hard drive?

In my case, if I tell the Debian installer to place the GRUB
boot-loader into (hdd1,1) or /dev/sdb, will it place the GRUB
boot-loader in the '/' (root partition) due to the fact that its
listed FIRST in the 'Review Partition Layout' screen?

Ready to go except for this latch glitch..... thank you


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Brian 10-13-2012 07:31 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat 13 Oct 2012 at 14:28:42 -0400, Wally Lepore wrote:

> In my case, if I tell the Debian installer to place the GRUB
> boot-loader into (hdd1,1) or /dev/sdb, will it place the GRUB
> boot-loader in the '/' (root partition) due to the fact that its
> listed FIRST in the 'Review Partition Layout' screen?

(hd1,1) is not the same as /dev/sdb. Part of GRUB will go in the first
partition, not in the embedding area of the disk, You will likely get a
warning message but can go ahead and do it. Many people have and they
report no ill effects. I would go for /dev/sdb.

GRUB always, always, always puts its image files under /boot, unless it
is told otherwise. You have a directory /boot. It has its own partition.
That partition could be anywhere on the disk. First, last or in the
middle. GRUB couldn't care less. It will look for /boot.

You did not need /boot on its own partition to begin with and are
needlessly complicating things by focussing on it.


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Wally Lepore 10-13-2012 10:49 PM

GRUB location on Dual-Boot with TWO hard drives
 
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>
> We await your announcement of 'success'.
>
> P.S. It is (hd1,1). You really do not want to do put GRUB there. It is
> not the same as /dev/sdb. Honest.


*******SUCCESS********
*******SUCCESS********
Debian Squeeze installed successfully !

The dual-boot did not work but I can boot into either Win2k or Debian
simply by changing the boot order in the BIOS (hdd-0 or hdd-1). When
I set Debian (hdd-1) as 1st boot device I do receive a menu that asks
which OS I would like to boot but Win2k (hdd-0) is not offered as a
choice. Its missing.

The only choices presented are Debian Squeeze and Debian Recovery. I
guess the fact that I did not put GRUB on the win2k drive (hdd-0) is
probably why win2k is not offered as an optional OS to boot. However,
based on the suggestions from the helpful replies I have received and
reading the online tutorials, everyone has suggested the same thing,
"Don't put Grub on the windows drive". That is good enough advice for
me! Who knows what could have happened!

I can still boot either OS (win2k or Debian) simply by changing the
boot order in BIOS. Not a big deal. Sure beats swapping drives in and
out of the computer. :)

Now I can finally join the ranks of Debian users and ask operational
questions, help others and start the real uphill climb in learning all
aspects of linux. A lot more reading and studying for sure - forever.
:) Right off the bat I've encountered the following 'oddities'.

1) Flash in Youtube is jagged and slow motion. I read all about linux
and flash and will study this further.
2) No audio (My audio card is M-audio Delta 196) I also have on-board audio.
3) Google gmail locks up when I visit the page to check my mail.

These are just some of the many issues I'm sure I will encounter as
time goes on. I will do much research to solve these issues on my own
before posting separate questions on each issue (one at a time). First
task is to settle in with learning the basics of the new OS.

Learning the intricate choices and partitioning aspects during the
debian-install was a tremendous learning experience. As time goes on,
I will probably re-install Debian on its own system as I believe that
is the best way to proceed.

I kindly thank all who have endured and answered my questions from the
beginning to end.The advice given on this mailing list is superb!

Looking forward to promoting Debian and Linux!

Thank you and be well.
Wally


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