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Old 10-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Francesco Pietra
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

Hello:
I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).

Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
i388 PC) to ia32-libs?

Thanks for advice

francesco pietra


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Old 10-09-2012, 12:58 PM
lee
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

Francesco Pietra <chiendarret@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello:
> I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
> OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
>
> Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
> i388 PC) to ia32-libs?

If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.


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Old 10-09-2012, 02:54 PM
Alberto Luaces
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

lee writes:

> Francesco Pietra writes:
>
>> Hello:
>> I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
>> OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
>>
>> Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
>> i388 PC) to ia32-libs?
>
> If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
> fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
> broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.

I had no problems using multiarch in testing and installing the required
:i386 packages. However, I had to use the nvidia drivers from
experimental in order to have working 32-bit OpenGL libraries.

--
Alberto


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Old 10-10-2012, 11:19 AM
lee
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

> lee writes:
>
>> Francesco Pietra writes:
>>
>>> Hello:
>>> I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
>>> OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
>>>
>>> Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
>>> i388 PC) to ia32-libs?
>>
>> If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
>> fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
>> broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.
>
> I had no problems using multiarch in testing and installing the required
> :i386 packages.

I've been using a 32bit application which stopped working when the
NVIDIA drivers were updated last time. The reasons why it stopped
working are unknown, and apparently I would have to switch to brokenarch
before having a chance to get it working again. There's no way to tell
which i386 packages would need to be installed, and since it doesn't
work anyway, there's no point in trying to find out.

> However, I had to use the nvidia drivers from experimental in order to
> have working 32-bit OpenGL libraries.

I have tried that at least three times now. It doesn't work, causes
dependency problems and is difficult to fix once it's messed up.

32bit support is totally broken, brokenarch totally sucks, and I'm
majorly pissed and don't trust Debian anymore. It seems unlikely that
the problem will be fixed before the next release is out, and I find it
amazing that they will leave the users of stable with this problem and
have them find out that their 32bit software doesn't work anymore after
the upgrade. If it wasn't such a pita to do it, I'd already have
switched to something else.


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Old 10-11-2012, 12:17 PM
Alberto Luaces
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

lee writes:

> Alberto Luaces writes:
>
>> lee writes:
>>
>>> Francesco Pietra writes:
>>>
>>>> Hello:
>>>> I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
>>>> OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
>>>>
>>>> Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
>>>> i388 PC) to ia32-libs?
>>>
>>> If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
>>> fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
>>> broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.
>>
>> I had no problems using multiarch in testing and installing the required
>> :i386 packages.
>
> I've been using a 32bit application which stopped working when the
> NVIDIA drivers were updated last time.

Correct. The same happened to me.

> The reasons why it stopped working are unknown,

Not quite. The *nvidia-glx-ia32 packages where emptied/obsoleted. See
for example http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/libgl1-nvidia-glx-ia32 .

> and apparently I would have to switch to brokenarch before having a
> chance to get it working again. There's no way to tell which i386
> packages would need to be installed, and since it doesn't work anyway,
> there's no point in trying to find out.
>

Yes it is. If you have installed the typical 64-bit .deb package that
is actually a 32-bit binary with the ia32-libs package dependency, you
can just quickly install the real 32-bit .deb. Then apt-get or aptitude
will pull the :i386 dependencies for that :i386 package. This can be
done for example, for skype or the Humble Bundle games.

If your package is not installed as a .deb file, you would be on your
own as well recollecting the appropriate libraries in 32 bit.
Nevertheless, you can track which ones are required with the command
'ldd' and the Debian packages page
(http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages) This is not a specific
multiarch advice, anyway.

>
>> However, I had to use the nvidia drivers from experimental in order to
>> have working 32-bit OpenGL libraries.
>
> I have tried that at least three times now. It doesn't work, causes
> dependency problems and is difficult to fix once it's messed up.

The only tricky part at the time of this writing is to select the right
nvidia drivers if you are using them. But as I said, now there is
available at the experimental repository a new version that fixes the
multiarch problem for OpenGL. Just take care of installing the exact
same version of drivers and libraries among the multiple solutions
offered to you by the conflict resolution tool in apt-get/aptitude.

> 32bit support is totally broken, brokenarch totally sucks, and I'm
> majorly pissed and don't trust Debian anymore. It seems unlikely that
> the problem will be fixed before the next release is out, and I find it
> amazing that they will leave the users of stable with this problem and
> have them find out that their 32bit software doesn't work anymore after
> the upgrade. If it wasn't such a pita to do it, I'd already have
> switched to something else.

I think the opposite. I see all mature enough, and I expect that tiny
details like the one I described will be ironed out before the release.
The concept is simple: activate multiarch → install 32-bit software by
means of 32-bit .debs. The wine package for wheezy in amd64 has a nice
documentation on how to activate multiarch.

--
Alberto


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Old 10-11-2012, 08:08 PM
lee
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

>> I've been using a 32bit application which stopped working when the
>> NVIDIA drivers were updated last time.
>
> Correct. The same happened to me.

Yeah and it's impossible to get it working again (((

>> The reasons why it stopped working are unknown,
>
> Not quite. The *nvidia-glx-ia32 packages where emptied/obsoleted. See
> for example http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/libgl1-nvidia-glx-ia32 .

That doesn't mean that's the reason why it stopped working.

>> and apparently I would have to switch to brokenarch before having a
>> chance to get it working again. There's no way to tell which i386
>> packages would need to be installed, and since it doesn't work anyway,
>> there's no point in trying to find out.
>>
>
> Yes it is. If you have installed the typical 64-bit .deb package that
> is actually a 32-bit binary with the ia32-libs package dependency, you
> can just quickly install the real 32-bit .deb. Then apt-get or aptitude
> will pull the :i386 dependencies for that :i386 package. This can be
> done for example, for skype or the Humble Bundle games.

There is no Debian package for this 32bit application.

> If your package is not installed as a .deb file, you would be on your
> own as well recollecting the appropriate libraries in 32 bit.
> Nevertheless, you can track which ones are required with the command
> 'ldd' and the Debian packages page
> (http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages) This is not a specific
> multiarch advice, anyway.

What would that help me without knowing why the application doesn't work
anymore? It seems reasonable to assume that it has something to do with
the NVIDIA drivers --- if I could, I'd just go back to the previous
version.

>>> However, I had to use the nvidia drivers from experimental in order to
>>> have working 32-bit OpenGL libraries.
>>
>> I have tried that at least three times now. It doesn't work, causes
>> dependency problems and is difficult to fix once it's messed up.
>
> The only tricky part at the time of this writing is to select the right
> nvidia drivers if you are using them. But as I said, now there is
> available at the experimental repository a new version that fixes the
> multiarch problem for OpenGL. Just take care of installing the exact
> same version of drivers and libraries among the multiple solutions
> offered to you by the conflict resolution tool in apt-get/aptitude.

The package management doesn't know anything about unstable or
experimental anymore because that lead to problems, so it doesn't
present any solutions. If I download and install packages manually, it
causes dependency problems, and I might have to do so indefinitely once
I started doing it.

>> 32bit support is totally broken, brokenarch totally sucks, and I'm
>> majorly pissed and don't trust Debian anymore. It seems unlikely that
>> the problem will be fixed before the next release is out, and I find it
>> amazing that they will leave the users of stable with this problem and
>> have them find out that their 32bit software doesn't work anymore after
>> the upgrade. If it wasn't such a pita to do it, I'd already have
>> switched to something else.
>
> I think the opposite. I see all mature enough, and I expect that tiny
> details like the one I described will be ironed out before the release.

It's not a tiny detail when an important feature suddenly disappears
without any warning and without any way to get it back. It's also not a
tiny detail when you're suddenly supposed to give up amd64 and switch to
brokenarch. It would be easier to re-install and use i386 instead of
amd64, but I don't like the idea of turning my system back about a
decade because Debian is totally messed up now --- and it's about as
much work as switching.

> The concept is simple: activate multiarch → install 32-bit software by
> means of 32-bit .debs. The wine package for wheezy in amd64 has a nice
> documentation on how to activate multiarch.

I don't have any use for wine and the two or three times I tried it over
the years, wine didn't work anyway. Last time it couldn't even run
notepad.

Anyway, the concept sucks and is anything but simple. So what do I need
to install --- packages from testing only, of course --- to get things
working again? Why isn't that documented somewhere?


--
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:54 AM
Roger Leigh
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 02:58:50PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Francesco Pietra <chiendarret@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Hello:
> > I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
> > OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
> >
> > Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
> > i388 PC) to ia32-libs?
>
> If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
> fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
> broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.
^^^^^^^^^^

Please reconsider your public disparaging of the hard work of many
people over many years. It's not helpful or productive. If you
have found a corner case where multi-arch is not working for you,
then please file bugs appropriately. Multi-arch is working extremely
well for everyone else, and it is already a massive improvement upon
the status quo. If you have nothing positive to contribute, then
consider not saying it at all.


Roger

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Old 10-14-2012, 12:51 PM
lee
 
Default Running 32bit OpenGL program with amd64

Roger Leigh <rleigh@codelibre.net> writes:

> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 02:58:50PM +0200, lee wrote:
>> Francesco Pietra <chiendarret@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Hello:
>> > I would like to continue to use a 32bit graphical program based on
>> > OpenGL. It worked well on i386, requiring libXm.so.3 (from libmotif3).
>> >
>> > Is it conceivable to simply add libXm.so.3 (taken from my dismissed
>> > i388 PC) to ia32-libs?
>>
>> If you're running stable, it might work if all dependencies are
>> fulfilled. You could try it out ... In testing, 32bit support is
>> broken, and ia32-libs seems to be deprecated in favour of brokenarch.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Please reconsider your public disparaging of the hard work of many
> people over many years. It's not helpful or productive.

I'm not disparaging anything. What they euphemistically call
"multiarch" means they want users to turn their installations into some
mixture of different architectures and to give up the one they are
running. That makes things way more difficult or even impossible to
maintain and, in case of amd64, leaves them with a broken system after
things that used to work fine suddenly stopped working. There's even no
fix for that. They are trying offload the work to the users, claiming
that it becomes easier to maintain the packages, ignoring that it
becomes much more difficult for the users to maintain their systems. I
have always refused to turn my system back about a decade to an obsolete
architecture, and now they are trying to force me to do just that. I
don't want to have two (or more) different architectures installed, and
I don't want to have to dig through twice (or more) the number of
packages --- it's extremely annoying.

> If you have found a corner case where multi-arch is not working for
> you, then please file bugs appropriately.

It can't be a corner case. Since the last update of the NVIDIA drivers,
something is broken and apparently all 32bit software that uses SDL
doesn't work anymore. That will affect everyone who tries to run such
software.

Besides, I've filed a bug report immediately after things stopped
working a few weeks ago, and it's still not fixed. It has been ignored
except for a package I didn't send the report against and didn't even
know that the package exists.

> Multi-arch is working extremely well for everyone else, and it is
> already a massive improvement upon the status quo. If you have
> nothing positive to contribute, then consider not saying it at all.

Brokenarch sucks badly. What makes you think it works for anyone? It's
in no way an improvement that users who can't avoid to run 32bit
software on amd64 now are supposed to dig through twice the number of
packages. It's in no way an improvement that they need to give up their
architecture. It's in no way an improvement that they will end up with
installing everything twice. It's in no way an improvement that users
don't know anymore what they need to install to be able to run 32bit
software. It's in no way an improvement that it doesn't help in any
way to get rid of an obsolete architecture. Brokenarch makes things
worse and doesn't improve anything at all.

Who do you think you are that you think you could tell me to shut up?
Better tell me how to get things working again.


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