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Chris Bannister 09-25-2012 11:31 AM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 03:53:21PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote:
>
> > Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain)
> > to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be
> > wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's
> > rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills
> > are or aren't. That's simply out of place.
>
> I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a
> primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a
> cursory effort to search for information before asking here.

+1

That is one of the reasons it is getting harder and harder to find a
helpful hint to a search because it is getting "swallowed" in haystacks,
and the haystacks are getting bigger.

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Chris Bannister 09-25-2012 11:44 AM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 04:54:26PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> On 9/21/2012 4:16 PM, Neal Murphy wrote:
> > On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> >> It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should
> >> be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should
> >> they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is
> >> so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home
> >> page and reading the subsequent page.
> >
> > I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a
> > public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer
>
> That's how it's supposed to work, but rarely does. Most people these
> days go straight for the mailing list hoping to save themselves the
> time/effort of doing research.

+1

Especially when people are so very willing to do their Internet searches
for them.

> There will likely be dozens more replies to this thread with the
> Lilliputians gang tackling me for being a "bully". I guess forcefully
> presenting facts is now classified as "bullying" in 2012.

There's a big difference.

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Tony Baldwin 09-27-2012 02:34 PM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
>
> Am 21.09.2012 um 06:43 schrieb Stan Hoeppner:
>
> >On 9/20/2012 8:43 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> >>Everybody has to start somewhere <snip>
> >
> >Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580.
>
> Why not?
>
> AFAIR it was with the release of Squeeze that I did my first 64 bit
> installation after using Debian >10 years.
>
> I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used
> google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'.
>

Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit
processor, or an AMD64?
I have AMD64, and Lenny was my first OS on said architecture.
I <3 my AMD64 machine. (still have a couple of Pentium 32bit machines
around, an old Dell d420 and an old Celeron machine serving as a server
in my office).

./tony
--
http://www.tonybaldwin.me
all tony, all the time!
3F330C6E

Jochen Spieker 09-27-2012 03:07 PM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
Tony Baldwin:
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
>>
>> I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used
>> google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'.
>
> Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit
> processor, or an AMD64?

No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been
resolved in this very thread.

J.
--
I wish I had been aware enough to enjoy my time as a toddler.
[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

Kelly Clowers 09-27-2012 04:02 PM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Tony Baldwin <tony@tonybaldwin.org> wrote:
>
> Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit
> processor, or an AMD64?

No. That is the point of this thread. The marketing name "Intel 64",
also known as "EM64T" *is* AMD64 aka x86-64. All modern Intel
Pentiums, Core series, and Xeons are x86-64. It is called AMD64 in
Debian because AMD invented that extension to x86; Intel copied it
when it turned out to be so successful.

IA64 (Intel Architecture 64, named long before the marketing name
"Intel 64" for x86-64) is the Itanium processor and is about as
different from anything x86 as it is possible to be. It is a VLIW
architecture, very unlike traditional CISC (x86, PDP-11, VAX, Moto
68k) or RISC (ARM, MIPS, POWER, SPARC). Itanium is a very expensive
chip that is used in very expensive servers and mainframe-type
computers. It is/was meant to compete with high-end modern SPARCs and
IBM POWER, and to some extent IBM zSeries/System Z, and it was a
replacement for HP's PA-RISC.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Martin Steigerwald 09-27-2012 06:18 PM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
Am Dienstag, 25. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner:
> I'm direct, often blunt, opinionated, arrogant, and sometimes abrasive.
> I admit these character "flaws" and make no apologies for
> them. That's who I am. I guess I was made to counterbalance all of
> the sugar coating and political correctness afoot in the world these
> days. ;)

LOL

> I think most people know when I swing the cluebat that I'm not trying
> to belittle the person on the receiving end, but simply forcefully
> driving home a point. If I actually intended to hurt someone's
> feelings I'd reply off list. That makes it personal. And this is
> exactly why I never do such a thing--because it's never personal.

Good to know.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Jochen Spieker 09-27-2012 08:43 PM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
Stan Hoeppner:
>
> I think most people know when I swing the cluebat that I'm not trying to
> belittle the person on the receiving end, but simply forcefully driving
> home a point. If I actually intended to hurt someone's feelings I'd
> reply off list. That makes it personal. And this is exactly why I
> never do such a thing--because it's *never* personal.

Interesting approach.

I do it the other way round: I discarded many e-mails I had already
written after asking myself whether I would write the same to the
person privately, instead of on-list. If I feel uneasy about being harsh
in private, I don't do it in public.

J.
--
When standing at the top of beachy head I find the rocks below very
attractive.
[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

Stan Hoeppner 09-28-2012 06:35 AM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On 9/27/2012 10:07 AM, Jochen Spieker wrote:
> Tony Baldwin:
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
>>>
>>> I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used
>>> google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'.
>>
>> Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit
>> processor, or an AMD64?
>
> No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been
> resolved in this very thread.

Yes, it was, very early, by yours truly.

The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename
the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to something like
"AMDINTL64".

The conventions Debian uses are based on the microarchitecture names,
which back in the day worked fine and were self explanatory: i386,
IA64, 680x0, MIPS, ALPHA, SPARC, PPC, etc.

But when AMD released the x86-64 architecture in 2002, and Intel copied
it, creating two 64 bit chip families from Intel, the old naming
convention fell apart, as many laypeople can't make sense of it.

Granted the number of people unable/unwilling to figure this out on
their own is rather small, so those in charge simply haven't addressed
the issue. Given how often this question is asked, I think changes
should be made to fix this.

Maybe we could start some kind of petition for "Itanium" and
"AMDINTL64". I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to
know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion.

--
Stan


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Neal Murphy 09-28-2012 06:52 AM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename
> the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to something like
> "AMDINTL64".

Something wrong with 'x86_64'?


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Ralf Mardorf 09-28-2012 07:06 AM

IA64 or AMD64?
 
On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 02:52 -0400, Neal Murphy wrote:
> On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> > The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename
> > the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to something like
> > "AMDINTL64".
>
> Something wrong with 'x86_64'?

FWIW I never noticed a difference between CONFIG_MK8 yes and not set for
real-time kernels. This x86_64 vs amd64 thingy does confuse newbies, but
after a while everybody understands why there are those name. i368? What
is it for? I only know 80386, never heard about 80368 ;). There are
enough explanations available regarding to the names. Changing names
only will cause more confusion.

Regards,
Ralf


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