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Old 09-28-2012, 11:30 AM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

Am Freitag, 28. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner:
> On 9/27/2012 10:07 AM, Jochen Spieker wrote:
> > Tony Baldwin:
> >> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer
wrote:
> >>> I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used
> >>> google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'.
> >>
> >> Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit
> >> processor, or an AMD64?
> >
> >
> >
> > No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been
> > resolved in this very thread.
>
> Yes, it was, very early, by yours truly.
>
> The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename
> the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to something like
> "AMDINTL64".
>
> The conventions Debian uses are based on the microarchitecture names,
> which back in the day worked fine and were self explanatory: i386,
> IA64, 680x0, MIPS, ALPHA, SPARC, PPC, etc.
>
> But when AMD released the x86-64 architecture in 2002, and Intel copied
> it, creating two 64 bit chip families from Intel, the old naming
> convention fell apart, as many laypeople can't make sense of it.

AMDINTL64 seems to long for me.

I think x86-64 would make some sense. SUSE for examples uses it.

Or even pc32 and pc64, since that is the classical PC platform.

But then why other workstations on Alpha, SPARC base should not be called
PCs as well.

So maybe: x86-64 and x86-32.

Similar thing with PowerPC. powerpc-32, powerpc-64?

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-28-2012, 11:32 AM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

Am Freitag, 28. September 2012 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 02:52 -0400, Neal Murphy wrote:
> > On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> > > The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to
> > > rename the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to
> > > something like "AMDINTL64".
> >
> > Something wrong with 'x86_64'?
>
> FWIW I never noticed a difference between CONFIG_MK8 yes and not set
> for real-time kernels. This x86_64 vs amd64 thingy does confuse
> newbies, but after a while everybody understands why there are those
> name. i368? What is it for? I only know 80386, never heard about 80368
> . There are enough explanations available regarding to the names.
> Changing names only will cause more confusion.

Hmmm, the thing is named i386, huh?

--
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:54 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:35:49AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> Maybe we could start some kind of petition for "Itanium" and
> "AMDINTL64". I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to
> know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion.

Itanium will probably disappear as a supported release architecture sooner than
it would take to convince enough people it was worth renaming.


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Old 09-29-2012, 06:45 AM
Stan Hoeppner
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On 9/28/2012 1:52 AM, Neal Murphy wrote:
> On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote:
>> The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename
>> the IA64 port to "Itanium" and rename the AMD64 port to something like
>> "AMDINTL64".
>
> Something wrong with 'x86_64'?

Apparently AMD thought so. They renamed the architecture from their
original vendor neutral "x86-64" to the vendor specific, branded, AMD64.
Which is why Debian now calls its port "AMD64", whereas it originally
called it "x86-64". Debian currently uses ISA names for its ports. AMD
changed the name of the ISA, so Debian followed suit.

IMO, again, for the benefit of new or not so technical users, we should
break with the tradition of naming ports after ISAs, and give them names
that are meaningful to all users, not just those of us ITK.

Like it or not, silly as it, both Intel and AMD now brand the crap out
of their chips and avoid declaring the ISA in their literature. If
Debian is truly serious about driving adoption, changing some of the
port names to something new users can easily recognize is a good step.
Adopting Microsoft's use of "x64", while disdainful, would be the most
logical move. I avoided mentioning "x64' in my previous posts knowing
it would not be taken seriously, even though it is the smartest move.

--
Stan


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Old 09-29-2012, 06:47 AM
Stan Hoeppner
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On 9/28/2012 6:30 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> AMDINTL64 seems to long for me.

Compared to "kfreebsd-amd64" or "kfreebsd-i386" it's not long at all.
Besides, the length is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is that
people know exactly what it is by name alone.

> I think x86-64 would make some sense. SUSE for examples uses it.

The problem here is branding. Most users have no clue what x86-64
is--they've never heard of it. All they know is they have a 64 bit AMD
or Intel chip, of one name or another, such as Phenom or Core i7. The
name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to understand.

The other problem is the existence of the name "IA64". This has as much
to do with the confusion as "AMD64" does. To fix the entire problem,
"IA64" must be eliminated so it doesn't confuse people who have
non-Itanium Intel chips and are not techies.

> Or even pc32 and pc64, since that is the classical PC platform.

> But then why other workstations on Alpha, SPARC base should not be called
> PCs as well.
>
> So maybe: x86-64 and x86-32.
>
> Similar thing with PowerPC. powerpc-32, powerpc-64?

You're over thinking this Martin. There's no need to change all the
names, just the ones that are problematic.

--
Stan


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Old 09-29-2012, 07:06 AM
Stan Hoeppner
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On 9/28/2012 7:54 AM, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:35:49AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
>> Maybe we could start some kind of petition for "Itanium" and
>> "AMDINTL64". I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to
>> know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion.
>
> Itanium will probably disappear as a supported release architecture sooner than
> it would take to convince enough people it was worth renaming.

AFAIK, the only place Debian has on Itanic these days is possibly in the
second hand market for SGI Altix 3/4K and HP RX systems, in North
America anyway. And the numbers would be extremely small. You may be
right on this one.

Itanic is included in Wheezy yes? So it will be at least a few years
before the IA64 port is dropped. Changing from IA64 to Itanium during
the Wheezy release isn't going to confuse anyone. And it would
absolutely be helpful to many new users with non-Itanic chips who get
confused by it, containing both [i]ntel and [A]MD in the name. This
port name, combined with the "AMD64" port name, create the perfect storm
of confusion for new users with desktop x86-64 CPUs.

Intel isn't going to rebrand Itanium before they kill it, so this change
is a no brainer. Getting AMD64 changed I'd think would meet more
resistance.

--
Stan


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Old 09-29-2012, 09:51 AM
Brad Rogers
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 01:47:55 -0500
Stan Hoeppner <stan@hardwarefreak.com> wrote:

Hello Stan,

>name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to
>understand.

I disagree. the use of the letters INTL are already established,
admittedly in other fields, as representing "International". For one
letter, what's wrong with AMDINTEL64?

However, x86-64 is the better option, IMO. Your contention that "most
users don't what it is, they've never heard of it" may be true in the
general sense, but we're talking Linux adopters here; On the whole,
they're a bit more technically savvy that the average Joe.

Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the
IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days.
Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as
competent as before, I couldn't say.

--
Regards _
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)rad never immediately apparent"
But they didn't tell him the first two didn't count
Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers
 
Old 09-30-2012, 03:04 AM
Stan Hoeppner
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

On 9/29/2012 4:51 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 01:47:55 -0500
> Stan Hoeppner <stan@hardwarefreak.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Stan,
>
>> name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to
>> understand.
>
> I disagree. the use of the letters INTL are already established,
> admittedly in other fields, as representing "International". For one
> letter, what's wrong with AMDINTEL64?

Works for me. The whole point behind the proposed change is eliminating
confusion. If adding the 'e' helps lets do it.

> However, x86-64 is the better option, IMO. Your contention that "most
> users don't what it is, they've never heard of it" may be true in the
> general sense, but we're talking Linux adopters here; On the whole,
> they're a bit more technically savvy that the average Joe.

It's not my contention of supposition, it's simply fact. Read the post
that started this thread. The OP was confused by AMF64. He's surely be
just as confused by "x86-64". Driving adoption is all about pulling the
non-Linux savvy crowd to Debian. Your point is valid for current users,
not new users, "new" defined as coming from Microsoft Windows and never
having used Linux. If some Linux savvy users, such as the OP who
started this thread, can't understand the current port names, 'new'
users surely won't.

You're also missing the fact that "IA64" confuses people who have never
heard of the Intel EPIC chips based on the IA64 ISA. They see "IA64"
and think "Intel" "AMD" "64".

> Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the
> IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days.
> Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as
> competent as before, I couldn't say.

There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are
irrelevant. What matters is that people aren't "getting it". If we
change the port names they more than likely will get it.

--
Stan



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Old 09-30-2012, 10:40 AM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

Am Sonntag, 30. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner:
> > Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the
> > IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days.
> > Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as
> > competent as before, I couldn't say.
>
> There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are
> irrelevant. What matters is that people aren't "getting it". If we
> change the port names they more than likely will get it.

So or so I think if someone likes to propose a change of the current
naming time its not sufficient to discuss this in this user mailing list.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-30-2012, 11:02 AM
Wolf Halton
 
Default IA64 or AMD64?

How long after end-of-life of the itanium chip will Debian keep the port to IA64?


sorry for top-posting; that is how droid does.


Wolf Halton

http://sourcefreedom.com

Apache developer:

wolfhalton@apache.org

On Sep 30, 2012 6:40 AM, "Martin Steigerwald" <Martin@lichtvoll.de> wrote:
Am Sonntag, 30. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner:

> > Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the

> > IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days.

> > Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as

> > competent as before, I couldn't say.

>

> There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are

> irrelevant. *What matters is that people aren't "getting it". *If we

> change the port names they more than likely will get it.



So or so I think if someone likes to propose a change of the current

naming time its not sufficient to discuss this in this user mailing list.



--

Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de

GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA *B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7





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