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Old 09-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Lionel Trésaugues
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

Hello,

I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
(such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
doesn't lead to any improvements .

My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.

I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).

I tried to adjust the fonts using all the different combinations
available with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config as well as playing
with the hinting and smoothing settings of the fonts without any
improvements.

The proprietary Nvidia drivers are enabled and my screen uses a
resolution of 1366x768 at 60Hz (same settings as the one provided by
the Ubuntu-based distributions). Different Nvidia drivers (series 295
and 302) led to the same effect.

I also used a Samsung SyncMaster (recognized as CRT by
nvidia-settings) through VGA in TwinView mode and the pain is even
worse when I watch this screen (despite using once again the same
settings as the ones I used with Ubuntu-based distributions)

Could you help me to solve this problem ?

Here are the specifications of my system :

Computer : Acer Aspire 6930G
Graphic card : GeForce 9600M GS (with the proprietary Nvidia drivers
(version 302.17) enabled)

My xorg.conf :

# nvidia-xconfig: X configuration file generated by nvidia-xconfig
# nvidia-xconfig: version 302.17 (buildd@biber) Sat Jun 30 20:51:21 UTC 2012

Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "Layout0"
Screen 0 "Screen0"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer"
EndSection

Section "Files"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
# generated from default
Identifier "Mouse0"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "auto"
Option "Device" "/dev/psaux"
Option "Emulate3Buttons" "no"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
# generated from default
Identifier "Keyboard0"
Driver "kbd"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Monitor0"
VendorName "Unknown"
ModelName "Unknown"
HorizSync 28.0 - 33.0
VertRefresh 43.0 - 72.0
Option "DPMS"
EndSection

Section "Device"
Identifier "Device0"
Driver "nvidia"
VendorName "NVIDIA Corporation"
EndSection

Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Device0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Depth 24
EndSubSection
EndSection

The output from xrandr (when the VGA secondary display is disconnected):

Screen 0: minimum 8 x 8, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192
VGA-0 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
LVDS-0 connected 1366x768+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y
axis) 353mm x 198mm
1366x768 60.0*+
HDMI-0 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)


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Old 09-18-2012, 09:52 PM
Lisi
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

Hi, Lionel,

On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:31:21 Lionel Trésaugues wrote:
> I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
> computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
> (such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
> doesn't lead to any improvements .
>
> My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.

I sympathise, but I doubt that anyone else would be able to predict what you
need for your eyes. That is such an individual matter. Have you tried a
detailed analysis of the screen for all the distributions?

How important is it to you to be able to run Debian? Would it be worth some
spectacles, or some new ones if you already wear them? (This solution worked
for me.)

Have you tried any of the rpm distros?

> I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
> any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).

But Ubuntu _is_ Debian based! I don't like it myself, but if it solves your
problem, why not use it?

> I tried to adjust the fonts using all the different combinations
> available with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config as well as playing
> with the hinting and smoothing settings of the fonts without any
> improvements.

It sounds to me more likely to be something to do with the refresh rate rather
than anything else. A very slight difference could adequately explain the
symptoms you are experiencing.

Incidentally, do you know what changed immediately before this started to
happen?

Lisi


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Old 09-18-2012, 10:13 PM
Martin Smith
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 18/09/2012 22:52, Lisi wrote:

Hi, Lionel,

On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:31:21 Lionel Trésaugues wrote:

I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
(such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
doesn't lead to any improvements .

My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.

I sympathise, but I doubt that anyone else would be able to predict what you
need for your eyes. That is such an individual matter. Have you tried a
detailed analysis of the screen for all the distributions?

How important is it to you to be able to run Debian? Would it be worth some
spectacles, or some new ones if you already wear them? (This solution worked
for me.)

Have you tried any of the rpm distros?


I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).

But Ubuntu _is_ Debian based! I don't like it myself, but if it solves your
problem, why not use it?


I tried to adjust the fonts using all the different combinations
available with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config as well as playing
with the hinting and smoothing settings of the fonts without any
improvements.

It sounds to me more likely to be something to do with the refresh rate rather
than anything else. A very slight difference could adequately explain the
symptoms you are experiencing.
A minimum refresh rate of 72Hz is recommended (same as average human
heart rate) to
minimize optical discomfort that you seem to be suffering. Less than
that the screen will
often jump about and make it difficult to see properly. See if you can
do something about

that.




Incidentally, do you know what changed immediately before this started to
happen?

Lisi





--
Martin


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Old 09-19-2012, 12:01 AM
Rob Owens
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:13:40PM +0100, Martin Smith wrote:
> A minimum refresh rate of 72Hz is recommended (same as average human
> heart rate) to
> minimize optical discomfort that you seem to be suffering. Less than
> that the screen will
> often jump about and make it difficult to see properly. See if you
> can do something about
> that.
>
I always thought that refresh rate didn't matter on LCD monitors, and
that 60Hz was recommended simply because the monitor always converted
its input to 60Hz anyway. But I don't have any hard data proving that
is true...

-Rob


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Old 09-19-2012, 12:43 AM
lee
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

Lionel Trésaugues <lionel.tresaugues@gmail.com> writes:

> My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.
>
> I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
> any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).
>
> I tried to adjust the fonts using all the different combinations
> available with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config as well as playing
> with the hinting and smoothing settings of the fonts without any
> improvements.

Do the fonts look different in Debian? If so, in which way? If they
do, you could try to find out how they are rendered and try to have them
rendered the same in Debian.

You can try the following in ~/.fonts.conf.d --- I wasn't happy with how
the fonts were rendered and I like them better with these settings:


<?xml version="1.0"?>
<match target="font">
<edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
<bool>false</bool>
</edit>
</match>

<match target="font">
<edit name="rgba" mode="assign">
<const>rgb</const>
</edit>
</match>

<match target="font">
<edit mode="assign" name="lcdfilter">
<const>lcddefault</const>
</edit>
</match>

<match target="font">
<edit name="antialias" mode="assign">
<bool>false</bool>
</edit>
</match>


<match target="font">
<edit name="hinting" mode="assign">
<bool>true</bool>
</edit>
</match>

<match target="font">
<edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign">
<const>hintfull</const>
</edit>
</match>


There's good documentation on [1] you might want to look into. You'll
have to play around with the settings to find what's best for you.

BTW, how about infinality[2] in Debian? Has anyone tried that?


[1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Font_Configuration
[2]: http://www.infinality.net/blog/infinality-freetype-patches/

--
Debian testing amd64


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Old 09-19-2012, 12:43 AM
Doug
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 9/18/2012 8:01 PM, Rob Owens wrote:

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:13:40PM +0100, Martin Smith wrote:

A minimum refresh rate of 72Hz is recommended (same as average human
heart rate) to
minimize optical discomfort that you seem to be suffering. Less than
that the screen will
often jump about and make it difficult to see properly. See if you
can do something about
that.


I always thought that refresh rate didn't matter on LCD monitors, and
that 60Hz was recommended simply because the monitor always converted
its input to 60Hz anyway. But I don't have any hard data proving that
is true...

-Rob



The human heart rate is measured in beats *per minute* not per second!
--doug


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Old 09-19-2012, 01:01 AM
Mark Allums
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 9/18/2012 5:13 PM, Martin Smith wrote:

On 18/09/2012 22:52, Lisi wrote:

Hi, Lionel,

On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:31:21 Lionel Trésaugues wrote:

I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
(such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
doesn't lead to any improvements .

My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.

I sympathise, but I doubt that anyone else would be able to predict
what you
need for your eyes. That is such an individual matter. Have you tried a
detailed analysis of the screen for all the distributions?

How important is it to you to be able to run Debian? Would it be
worth some
spectacles, or some new ones if you already wear them? (This solution
worked
for me.)

Have you tried any of the rpm distros?


I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).

But Ubuntu _is_ Debian based! I don't like it myself, but if it
solves your
problem, why not use it?


I tried to adjust the fonts using all the different combinations
available with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config as well as playing
with the hinting and smoothing settings of the fonts without any
improvements.

It sounds to me more likely to be something to do with the refresh
rate rather
than anything else. A very slight difference could adequately
explain the
symptoms you are experiencing.

A minimum refresh rate of 72Hz is recommended (same as average human
heart rate) to
minimize optical discomfort that you seem to be suffering. Less than
that the screen will
often jump about and make it difficult to see properly. See if you can
do something about
that.



He said LCD. They are usually 60. Sometimes 120, if using a TV for a
monitor.


However, LCDs don't flicker.

Try adjusting the brightness and contrast (of the display itself).






Incidentally, do you know what changed immediately before this started to
happen?

Lisi








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Old 09-19-2012, 09:32 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Tue, 2012-09-18 at 20:01 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:13:40PM +0100, Martin Smith wrote:
> > A minimum refresh rate of 72Hz is recommended (same as average human
> > heart rate) to
> > minimize optical discomfort that you seem to be suffering. Less than
> > that the screen will
> > often jump about and make it difficult to see properly. See if you
> > can do something about
> > that.
> >
> I always thought that refresh rate didn't matter on LCD monitors, and
> that 60Hz was recommended simply because the monitor always converted
> its input to 60Hz anyway. But I don't have any hard data proving that
> is true...

I'm still using tube monitors. For LCD the refreshing rate doesn't
matter, because the screen will be refreshed, but without going out. For
a tube monitor it's going out and refreshed, this does cause the
stroboscope effect.
However, some people are sensitive and even the colors could cause pain.
I like to kill all the politicians of the EU, I only own 7 auxiliary
reflector "small heating device", when they die, I'm forced to use
energy saving lamps, degassing plastic and incomplete light spectrum
with evil peaks for the spectrum will cause sickness. Btw. the
durability for a reflector lamp is some month, but for a reflector
energy saving lamp some hours, max some days only. YMMV!
Perhaps it's for some or all LCD displays similar. The angle of vision,
colors etc. all this in combination in the sum might cause problems for
some people.
An artist I know had no health issues using a LCD display, but even an
expensive, modern LCD display doesn't show the same color, if you
minimal watch it by another angle of vision and it's impossible to keep
the same angle of vision. He doesn't use the LCD and use his old
monitors again.
New isn't always better!

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 09-19-2012, 01:47 PM
T Elcor
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

----- Original Message -----

From: Lionel Trésaugues <lionel.tresaugues@gmail.com>

> I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
> computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
> (such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
> doesn't lead to any improvements .
>
> My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.

Try to identify what's causing your discomfort: Does your monitor flicker when you're running Debian? Fonts too small/blurry? Bad color scheme? Something else?

For CRT monitors, anything below 75Hz refresh rate results in visible flickering, in my experience. For LCD, 60Hz seems to work just fine.

> The proprietary Nvidia drivers are enabled and my screen uses a
> resolution of 1366x768 at 60Hz (same settings as the one provided by
> the Ubuntu-based distributions). Different Nvidia drivers (series 295
> and 302) led to the same effect.

Consider removing proprietary drivers as an experiment. I'm running wheezy with LCD and ATI chipset* without any proprietary drivers and it works well for me.

HTH


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Old 09-19-2012, 02:07 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Wed, 2012-09-19 at 06:47 -0700, T Elcor wrote:
> For CRT monitors, anything below 75Hz refresh rate results in visible flickering

It becomes usable at 75Hz, it becomes comfortable at >= 80Hz. If you
move your head or the monitor is in the corner of the eye, 75Hz still
could noticeable flicker. Even if it's not noticeable, it could cause
issues. Under 75Hz it's usable in case of emergency, but it's needed to
avoid e.g. white backgrounds.
My monitor at the moment refreshes at 89.9Hz. Thats very pleasant.
However, if I pluck a string of a guitar in front of the monitor, the
stroboscope effect still is noticeable.
89.9Hz aren't noticeable as a frequency below 75Hz is, but if you
compare watching a piece of paper and the monitor, you'll notice that
something is going on. Even if you watch the paper with light from its
backside.


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