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Old 09-20-2012, 03:30 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

Lionel Trésaugues wrote:
> Debian and Ubuntu deal with fonts existed. But the unpleasant
> feeling is present (even if not so intense), just by looking at the
> background of an empty desktop. It seems that the light is too
> intense, too violent (even when I reduce the brightness) and that my
> eyes keep on adjusting the focus with no interruption in an almost
> imperceptible manner.

Two things I would consider are:

* The color temperature of the screen. Many LCDs have a very blue and
bright tinge to them, which can be painful in large doses and is
fixable by adjusting the color temperature and/or gamma correction.
Some LCD monitors have gamma correction settings, but I use the
redshift program to do it, as follows:
gtk-redshift -l 35:-80 -r -t 5800:5800 -g 0.9
(alternatively, try a pair of rose tinted sunglasses, same basic effect

While I can't imagine the color temp or gamma varying between
distributions, different desktop backgrounds could involve more
painful colors. IIRC Ubuntu's tend to be more red/brown than Debian's,
which would tend to obscure this problem.

* Inaudible or barely audible noise from either the computer or the
monitor, possibly created by specific clocks cycles of a particular
software load. (TV sets do this to me all the time.)
Try turning the monitor off and staying in front of the
computer, or leaving it on but with the display obscured to check,
or find a younger pair of ears who may be able to hear higher pitches.

--
see shy jo
 
Old 09-20-2012, 03:42 PM
T Elcor
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

----- Original Message from Lionel Trésaugues -----

> Lowering the brightness helps a little bit to make the pain more bearable,
> but it is still unpleasant and hurtful after a while.

Another thing you may want to try is to connect your monitor through the VGA connector instead of DVI, if you have the right cable.

Not sure if that would help, just curious if that would make any difference.


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Old 09-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 9/20/2012 9:51 AM, Lisi wrote:

On Thursday 20 September 2012 15:37:54 Mark Allums wrote:

Never had that experience or heard of it or dreamt of it.


You obviously feel that your experience is more valid than anyone else's when
it comes to monitors. But you appear to know nothing at all about
eye/eyesight/eyestrain problems and headaches.

You couldn't have heard of it, since you discount any mention you *do* hear.
And it is irrelevant whether you have experienced or dreamt of it. There
must be a good many disabilities, illnesses and physical problems about which
you know nothing or very little, and hopefully many more of which you have no
experience.

Lisi


I don't understand the bitterness of this reply.

I have neck problems; that is why I mentioned the viewing angle. I am
losing the eyesight in my left eye, that's what prompted me to remind OP
about the brightness, contrast color, etc. And I concurred with Ralf
about the blurriness being a result of a bad subpixel rendering that
needs adjusting,


Very few LCD monitors have a refresh setting other than 60Hz. So few,
in fact, that I have never seen one of them. I am sure that it
shouldn't matter much, because whatever the setting is, the true rate
will be constrained by the panels native ability. If the video card
sends video at a rate other than the native rate, the picture will
undergo "tearing", as the frame drawing is out of sync with the panel.
This is probably unnoticeable, but it might be visible while playing
video or playing games. The cure for it is to set the video card rate
to be equal to the native rate of the panel, and capping the frame rate
of video or games to be equal to that. In 3D games, one enables VSync.


I am trying to help. I just want everyone to think broadly and
creatively, not focus on one single aspect of the issue.






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Old 09-20-2012, 05:22 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 9/20/2012 10:16 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Jo, 20 sep 12, 09:37:54, Mark Allums wrote:


I have however seen LCD monitors behave significantly different
depending on refresh rate. Entire areas were blury, but everything was
fine when I switched to another refresh rate (60Hz -> 75Hz if I remember
correctly).


I have never owned an LCD/LED monitor that one could change that
setting on. And I've owned quite a few.

Not in any OS, Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Arch, Gentoo,
Slackware, PCBSD, FreeBSD, Haiku, Windows in any form or version, nv
driver, Nvidia driver, Nouveau driver VESA, Matrox, Cirrus logic,
Intel driver, Bare metal or native or Virtualbox or VMWare or Xen or
QEMU, any version of Xfree86, X.org, Wayland, KDE3, KDE4, GNOME 2,
GNOME 3, MATE, Cinnamon, XFCE, Open box, bare X, LXDE, Unity,
Moblin, LightDM, KDM,GDM, XDM.


I can get you the exact model numbers if you insist, but from memory,
it's an older 4:3 17" HP LCD, connected via VGA to an older HP desktop
(P4) with integrated Intel VGA adapter, running Windows XP.

Kind regards,
Andrei



That's interesting. I have learned something new today.

I'm sorry if I am appearing arrogant. It is not my intent.


Mark


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Old 09-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012, Mark Allums wrote:
> Very few LCD monitors have a refresh setting other than 60Hz. So
> few, in fact, that I have never seen one of them. I am sure that it

Usually the native resolution is at 60Hz, but not always. And if you are
running at a lower resolution than native, many LCDs will let you run them
at higher refresh rates.

Still, for mostly static images, the refresh rate really should not matter
on a LCD.

Now, *disabling* sub-pixel rendering, and reducing anti-aliasing may help a
lot. Ragged edges do not confuse the brain, while soft edges just might.
If a sub-pixel anti-alised font manages to keep your eyes trying to find a
better focus, you will get visual fadigue: blurry eyes, headaches/migraines,
and so on.

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh


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Old 09-20-2012, 07:07 PM
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012, Lisi wrote:
> On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:31:21 Lionel Trésaugues wrote:
> > I am experiencing a physical pain whenever I am in front of my
> > computer running either Debian (Wheezy) or Debian-based distributions
> > (such as Mint LMDE, XFCE or MATE edition). Switching from XFCE to MATE
> > doesn't lead to any improvements .
> >
> > My eyes start to suffer and soon, I can feel that an headache is coming.
> >
> > I don't have this feeling at all when I am running either Ubuntu or
> > any Ubuntu-based distribution (Mint XFCE or Cinnamon edition).
>
> Is there any possibility that more of the ultra-violet end of the spectrum
> might be displaying in the Debian list of distros than in the Ubuntu list?
>
> If so, that could certainly cause the problems that Lionel mentions, but I
> know too little about the colour reproduction involved to know whether it is
> possible. If this could be the case, how could Lionel change it?

LCDs work by blocking the white light from the backlight. If the pannel is
leaking UV, the leak should be worse on bright images (probably those with
brighter red and blue channel values).

But it really should not be leaking any relevant amount of UV in the first
place.

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh


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Old 09-20-2012, 07:36 PM
Lisi
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On Thursday 20 September 2012 18:20:49 Mark Allums wrote:
> > On Thursday 20 September 2012 15:37:54 Mark Allums wrote:
> >> Never had that experience or heard of it or dreamt of it.
> >
> > You obviously feel that your experience is more valid than anyone else's
> > when it comes to monitors. *But you appear to know nothing at all about
> > eye/eyesight/eyestrain problems and headaches.
> >
> > You couldn't have heard of it, since you discount any mention you *do*
> > hear. And it is irrelevant whether you have experienced or dreamt of it.
> > *There must be a good many disabilities, illnesses and physical problems
> > about which you know nothing or very little, and hopefully many more of
> > which you have no experience.
> >
> > Lisi
>
> I don't understand the bitterness of this reply.

I would as always challenge your choice of word. I was annoyed, not bitter.
But try reading your earlier replies both to me and to Andrei, particularly
to Andrei, whom you instructed to "live and learn".

And no-one but you is concentrating on a single issue. I had made several
suggestions, which Lionel had answered. Other people had made various
suggestions. You had made not one original helpful suggestion, just
poo-pooed anyone who had any experience that did not concur with your ideas.

> I am trying to help.

Whatever would your emails be like if you were tying to hinder!

> I just want everyone to think broadly and creatively, not focus on one
single aspect of the issue.

No-one but you is concentrating on a single issue. I had made several
suggestions, which Lionel had answered. Other people had made various
suggestions. You had made not one helpful suggestion, just poo-pooed anyone
who had any experience that did not concur with your ideas.

Lisi




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Old 09-20-2012, 07:50 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

On 9/20/2012 2:36 PM, Lisi wrote:

On Thursday 20 September 2012 18:20:49 Mark Allums wrote:

On Thursday 20 September 2012 15:37:54 Mark Allums wrote:

Never had that experience or heard of it or dreamt of it.


You obviously feel that your experience is more valid than anyone else's
when it comes to monitors. But you appear to know nothing at all about
eye/eyesight/eyestrain problems and headaches.

You couldn't have heard of it, since you discount any mention you *do*
hear. And it is irrelevant whether you have experienced or dreamt of it.
There must be a good many disabilities, illnesses and physical problems
about which you know nothing or very little, and hopefully many more of
which you have no experience.

Lisi


I don't understand the bitterness of this reply.


I would as always challenge your choice of word. I was annoyed, not bitter.
But try reading your earlier replies both to me and to Andrei, particularly
to Andrei, whom you instructed to "live and learn".


I was not instructing Andrei; I was (ruefully) referring to myself.
Another thing I might say in that situation is, "You learn something new
every day". This expression conveys surprise.






And no-one but you is concentrating on a single issue. I had made several
suggestions, which Lionel had answered. Other people had made various
suggestions. You had made not one original helpful suggestion, just
poo-pooed anyone who had any experience that did not concur with your ideas.


I don't remember it that way; indeed, I already repeated two examples,
which you removed from the message you are replying to for some reason:



I have neck problems; that is why I mentioned the viewing angle. I am losing the eyesight in my left eye, that's what prompted me to remind OP about the brightness, contrast color, etc. And I concurred with Ralf about the blurriness being a result of a bad subpixel rendering that needs adjusting,







I am trying to help.


Whatever would your emails be like if you were tying to hinder!


I just want everyone to think broadly and creatively, not focus on one

single aspect of the issue.

No-one but you is concentrating on a single issue.


Not true, go back and read the thread.


I had made several

suggestions, which Lionel had answered. Other people had made various
suggestions. You had made not one helpful suggestion, just poo-pooed anyone
who had any experience that did not concur with your ideas.

Lisi


You were obsessed with the refresh rate.






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Old 09-20-2012, 07:55 PM
Lionel Trésaugues
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

And the sub-pixel order is equal too?
The sub-pixel order is set to rgb (like I do in Ubuntu). I can
definitely see a (worse) change if I use a different mode.
Disabling the sub-pixel smoothing didn't improve anything relatively to
the pain generated by the exposure to the screen.


I'll come back to all of you in three days with some pictures to allow
you to properly compare the rendering in Ubuntu-based distro (currently
Maya13) and Debian Wheezy with the same graphic drivers, on the same
computer.


Nevertheless, to me, it seems that one of the best way to properly
identify and describe in a more objective manner my issue should be to
get on of these color calibrator such as the ColorHug.


Until them, I'll keep on reading the thread in silence, but please, stay
calm and respectuous with each other : my issue is not worth turning
people mad at each other


/lionel


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Old 09-20-2012, 08:00 PM
Lionel Trésaugues
 
Default Display hurtful on LCD screen with Wheezy

Another thing you may want to try is to connect your monitor through the VGA connector instead of DVI, if you have the right cable.

Not sure if that would help, just curious if that would make any difference.
My computer is connected to the Samsung SyncMaster through a VGA
connector. Unfortunately, I won't be able to try to connect it through
the DVI input because my computer doesn't have such a slot.
But in an other hand, I'll try (when I'll come back in some couple of
days) to get it connected to my HDTV through HDMI to see how it looks.



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