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Old 09-08-2012, 03:13 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

Hello, list. I've recently installed Debian Wheezy on a "new" (to me)
computer with an ATI Rage XL video chip. Here is an excerpt from
the output of "lspci -nn -vv". (Line wraps have been inserted to
keep well within the customary 80-column limit.)

05:03.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD]
nee ATI Rage XL [1002:4752] (rev 27) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])

The X server auto-selects the ati driver, which in turn selects the
mach64 driver. the mach64 driver identifies the card in
/var/log/Xorg.0.log as ...

ATI 3D Rage XL or XC graphics controller detected
Chip type 4752 "GR", version 7, foundry TSMC, class 0, revision 0x00

So the chip does have 3D capabilities. But when the X server
attempts to activate 3D acceleration, I get the following error:

[drm] failed to load kernel module "mach64"

and the driver reverts to 2D acceleration only. I've done quite a bit
of internet searching this morning, and it appears that it is, at
least in theory, possible to enable 3D acceleration; but it is not a
trivial task. Here's one link that I've found:

http://www.allquests.com/question/1501572-4/HOWTO-enable-3d-acceleration-w-Rage-Mobility-mach64.html

But this involves manual compilation and not using Debian packages.
>From other search results, it appears that there was at one time a
Debian package called drm-modules-source, which existed in experimental
back in the days of Lenny, but this package appears to have disappeared.
Before I get knee-deep in this, I thought I'd ask the list if there's
a better way. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is there a
Debian package I can use?

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 09-08-2012, 04:24 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:13:53 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:

> Hello, list. I've recently installed Debian Wheezy on a "new" (to me)
> computer with an ATI Rage XL video chip. Here is an excerpt from the
> output of "lspci -nn -vv". (Line wraps have been inserted to keep well
> within the customary 80-column limit.)

(...)

> ATI 3D Rage XL or XC graphics controller detected Chip type 4752
> "GR", version 7, foundry TSMC, class 0, revision 0x00
>
> So the chip does have 3D capabilities.

Yes it has, although the VGA chipset is about 8 years (or so) old so
don't expect astonishing results :-)

> But when the X server attempts to activate 3D acceleration, I get the
> following error:
>
> [drm] failed to load kernel module "mach64"
>
> and the driver reverts to 2D acceleration only.

And you need 3D acceleration because...?

> I've done quite a bit of internet searching this morning, and it
> appears that it is, at least in theory, possible to enable 3D
> acceleration; but it is not a trivial task. Here's one link that I've
> found:
>
> http://www.allquests.com/question/1501572-4/HOWTO-enable-3d-acceleration-w-Rage-Mobility-mach64.html

I will add this one:

http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/DriTroubleshooting

> But this involves manual compilation and not using Debian packages.

I wonder why people is so reluctant about installing packages from the
outside when this involves upstream projects which are well-known and
trustworthy :-?

> From other search results, it appears that there was at one time a
> Debian package called drm-modules-source, which existed in experimental
> back in the days of Lenny, but this package appears to have disappeared.

There exists this package but not sure if it's for the same purpose :-?

http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserver-xorg-video-mach64

> Before I get knee-deep in this, I thought I'd ask the list if there's a
> better way. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is there a
> Debian package I can use?

After reading this:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mach64

I would avoid using the module, it does not look very stable :-/

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Gary Dale
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On 08/09/12 11:13 AM, Stephen Powell wrote:

Hello, list. I've recently installed Debian Wheezy on a "new" (to me)
computer with an ATI Rage XL video chip. Here is an excerpt from
the output of "lspci -nn -vv". (Line wraps have been inserted to
keep well within the customary 80-column limit.)

05:03.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD]
nee ATI Rage XL [1002:4752] (rev 27) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])

The X server auto-selects the ati driver, which in turn selects the
mach64 driver. the mach64 driver identifies the card in
/var/log/Xorg.0.log as ...

ATI 3D Rage XL or XC graphics controller detected
Chip type 4752 "GR", version 7, foundry TSMC, class 0, revision 0x00

So the chip does have 3D capabilities. But when the X server
attempts to activate 3D acceleration, I get the following error:

[drm] failed to load kernel module "mach64"

and the driver reverts to 2D acceleration only. I've done quite a bit
of internet searching this morning, and it appears that it is, at
least in theory, possible to enable 3D acceleration; but it is not a
trivial task. Here's one link that I've found:

http://www.allquests.com/question/1501572-4/HOWTO-enable-3d-acceleration-w-Rage-Mobility-mach64.html

But this involves manual compilation and not using Debian packages.
> From other search results, it appears that there was at one time a
Debian package called drm-modules-source, which existed in experimental
back in the days of Lenny, but this package appears to have disappeared.
Before I get knee-deep in this, I thought I'd ask the list if there's
a better way. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is there a
Debian package I can use?


The link is quite old and much has changed. One clue to the problem is
that the mach64 kernel module is not loaded. The use of kernel modules
to do kernel mode switching is relatively recent and it doesn't always
happen automatically yet.



You can also check documentation for other distributions since the
problem is not Debian specific. These links may offer some clues:

- https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mach64
- http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml?style=printable
- http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEzMTU


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Old 09-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell:
> Hello, list. I've recently installed Debian Wheezy on a "new" (to me)
> computer with an ATI Rage XL video chip. Here is an excerpt from
> the output of "lspci -nn -vv". (Line wraps have been inserted to
> keep well within the customary 80-column limit.)

Is that chip on a graphics card?

Then from a quick glimpse of that thread it might be easier to just
replace it with something a bit more modern.

I think it will also be beneficial for 3D performance. Above card may even
not be quick enough for desktop effects via OpenGL compositing. Even that
mobile Radeon in my ThinkPad T42

01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: ATI Technologies Inc RV350
[Mobility Radeon 9600 M10] [1002:4e50]

which could easily be more modern than this ATI Rage XL in your computer
has problems coping with KDE desktop effects with the open source Radeon
driver (with KMS).

Heck, yes, your card seems to be even older:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Rage

This seems to be the first range of 3D graphics cards from ATI ever.

From there:

"Rage XL was a low-cost RAGE Pro-based solution. As a low-power solution
with capable 2D-acceleration, the chip was used on many low-end graphics
cards. It was also seen on Intel motherboards, as recently as 2004, and
was still used in 2006 for server motherboards. The Rage XL has been
succeeded by the ATI ES1000 for server use.

The chip was basically a die-shrunk Rage Pro, optimized to be very
inexpensive for solutions where only basic graphics output was necessary."

So even when that chip was still put on boards in this century it was for
server motherboard where you usually do not care about 3D performance. And
it was based on a chip from the last century, the Rage Pro.

I strongly suggest you spare yourself any struggle to get this card to
work with 3D on Linux. The performance is likely to be abysmal compared
even to cards that are five years old. Heck any desktop Radeon card from
this century should be (way) faster.

So do yourself a favor and try to get a used one that matches the bus
connection of your computer. Or stick with 2D.

Unless you really want to know whether it works

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-08-2012, 08:19 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 12:24:00 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote:
> ...
> the VGA chipset is about 8 years (or so) old so
> don't expect astonishing results :-)

I said the computer was new TO ME. I never said it was NEW.
This is a server machine literally thrown away by a business.
But it is now the most capable machine that I own.
>
> And you need 3D acceleration because...?

I don't NEED it, I just WANT it. I want it
mainly because I want to run GNOME 3. GNOME 3 initializes
in fallback mode if the graphics chip does not support 3D
acceleration, it seems.

>
> I will add this one:
>
> http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/DriTroubleshooting

I can't seem to connect to the site right now. I get a
"503 Service Unavailable". I'll try again later.
>
> I wonder why people is so reluctant about installing packages from the
> outside when this involves upstream projects which are well-known and
> trustworthy :-?

It's not a trust issue. I just prefer to stick to Debian packages
because they are likely to be better integrated with the Debian
maintenance procedures. For example, when using Nvidia drivers I
much prefer to stick to Debian packages rather than download stuff
directly from Nvidia because applying system maintenance is much
less likely to break the driver if I use Debian packages.
>
> There exists this package but not sure if it's for the same purpose :-?
>
> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserver-xorg-video-mach64

No, that is a binary user-space X driver, which is what the X server
is using now. The package I was referring to apparently contained the
source code for the mach64 kernel module, among other things.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 09-08-2012, 08:26 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 13:18:43 -0400 (EDT), Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>
> Is that chip on a graphics card?

No, it is built into the motherboard.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 09-09-2012, 07:16 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 04:24:00PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
> I wonder why people is so reluctant about installing packages from the
> outside when this involves upstream projects which are well-known and
> trustworthy :-?

It adds another layer of unnecessary complexity. If you can do
everything using packages from Debian mirrors, then there is only one
place to report bugs, whereas if you come across a bug *AND* are using
3rd party packages, it only complicates bug triaging, and your bug will
probably be closed as unable to reproduce. Note, some maintainers are
not interested in bug reports if there are 3rd party packages involved.

See vlc bug reports when deb.multimedia.org repository is enabled, for
example.

There are probably other reasons, which escape me at the moment.

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 13:18:43 -0400 (EDT), Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> > Is that chip on a graphics card?
>
> No, it is built into the motherboard.

Is this a server board?

What do you want to use it for?

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:10 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 12:24:00 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote:
> > ...
> > the VGA chipset is about 8 years (or so) old so
> > don't expect astonishing results :-)
>
> I said the computer was new TO ME. I never said it was NEW.
> This is a server machine literally thrown away by a business.
> But it is now the most capable machine that I own.

Ah, so a server board indeed.

> > And you need 3D acceleration because...?
>
> I don't NEED it, I just WANT it. I want it
> mainly because I want to run GNOME 3. GNOME 3 initializes
> in fallback mode if the graphics chip does not support 3D
> acceleration, it seems.

Well maybe using LLVMPIPE software renderer will be faster and easier on
this machine. But then I don´t know which versions of which debian package
know to have it working out of the box.

I´d bet that it will work on Wheezy, but then I never tried it. No need
to.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 02:27 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 16:19:17 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 12:24:00 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote:
>> ...
>> the VGA chipset is about 8 years (or so) old so don't expect
>> astonishing results :-)
>
> I said the computer was new TO ME. I never said it was NEW. This is a
> server machine literally thrown away by a business. But it is now the
> most capable machine that I own.

No need to SHOUT.

I understand that you knew nothing about this VGA chipset and I was
simply showing a fact by telling you about this chipset 3D capabilities
that are not that great.

>> And you need 3D acceleration because...?
>
> I don't NEED it, I just WANT it. I want it mainly because I want to run
> GNOME 3. GNOME 3 initializes in fallback mode if the graphics chip does
> not support 3D acceleration, it seems.

Again, there's no need to SHOUT.

As you should know, GNOME 3 does not require a 3D capable VGA but "gnome-
shell". You can still use GNOME 3 with the classic desktop; that you
don't want it is a different issue. That said I wouldn't rely that gnome-
shell can any good with a VGA chipset which is that old.

>> I will add this one:
>>
>> http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/DriTroubleshooting
>
> I can't seem to connect to the site right now. I get a "503 Service
> Unavailable". I'll try again later.

Then try later and tell us how it went.

>> I wonder why people is so reluctant about installing packages from the
>> outside when this involves upstream projects which are well-known and
>> trustworthy :-?
>
> It's not a trust issue. I just prefer to stick to Debian packages
> because they are likely to be better integrated with the Debian
> maintenance procedures. For example, when using Nvidia drivers I much
> prefer to stick to Debian packages rather than download stuff directly
> from Nvidia because applying system maintenance is much less likely to
> break the driver if I use Debian packages.

And that's a valid concern 90% of the time or when the available packages
on Debian repositories do fit to our purpose. Otherwise (which seems to
be the acse) you have to go out or live without a specific configuration
you need but can't get.

>> There exists this package but not sure if it's for the same purpose :-?
>>
>> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserver-xorg-video-mach64
>
> No, that is a binary user-space X driver, which is what the X server is
> using now. The package I was referring to apparently contained the
> source code for the mach64 kernel module, among other things.

What a pity... and good luck with your ATI.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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