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Old 08-09-2012, 06:41 PM
Brian
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Thu 09 Aug 2012 at 16:33:39 +0000, Camaleón wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 16:43:38 +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> > You've already provided a major reference for the discussion which has
> > taken place on debian-devel. It included controversy (altering the
> > status quo always does) but it really does come down to size. The first
> > CD is not big enough to hold GNOME but I assume it will be on the first
> > DVD. So maybe the decision was quickly made but it didn't come from
> > nowhere.
>
> Well, the idea came from one mind, that's for sure :-)

Really for sure?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2012/05/msg00025.html

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/07/msg00115.html


> yet still there
> are many questions floating in the air and not just because of the
> decision itself but (warning, rant starts here):
>
> 1/ The time of the change (when freeze is already in place)

Freeze exception. To accomodate GNOME or KDE on CD#1 both DEs would have
had to be cut down. More work for maintainers and complaints from users.

> 2/ The nature of the change (the installer is a key piece of any OS and
> it has to be well tested and yes, I run the installer from time to time
> in a VM to see if there's something missing or that fails)

The installer hasn't left beta-1 yet. Plenty of time left.

> 3/ No feedback (there can be another alternatives to XFCE)

Ratpoison?

> > The way the artwork for Wheezy was chosen also had its critics. See the
> > June archive for debian-desktop. The work is done by people who step
> > forward and surveys are not necessarily going to make that happen.
>
> Choosing the background, banner colours "et al" and defaulting a DE from
> the installer are not quite the same, I'd say >:-)

But the process of how the decisions are made and who makes them is the
same.


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Old 08-09-2012, 06:54 PM
Joe
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:50:24 +0100
Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 04:37:01PM +0100, Keith McKenzie wrote:
> > On 9 August 2012 15:24, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:31:05 +0100, Keith McKenzie wrote:
> > >
> [cut]
> >
> > A lot of people have been using XFCE already, so the decision may
> > have come from the package survey info.
>
> Fair point. However, comparing[3] popcon results for xfce4-session[1]
> and gnome-session[2], less than 4% of debian users use[4] xfce,
> compared to a little over 16% who use gnome.
>
> Hmm. My numbers seem a little suspect there. Is a graphical session
> REALLY used by such a small majority of the userbase?
>
>
> [1] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=xfce4-session
> [2] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gnome-session
> [3] I'm sure I've seen comparison graphs, but can't find how to do
> that. [4] use = Vote = "number of people who use this package
> regularly

In addition to the other replies, this *is* Debian, one of the major
distributions in the server business. The values for the user-friendly
distributions, even those based on Debian, will probably be much higher.

I have a workstation and server running nothing but Debian, one with a
GUI and one without. The workstation has run LXDE/Openbox since Gnome
3 went into sid. I do still use a number of Gnome applications, so
there's still a fair bit of Gnome in the machine, but not the core.

I do occasionally run sid on my laptop, which is about five years old
and stands less than no chance with Gnome 3. Trust me, you don't want
to run sid occasionally, the updates are a gig or so each time. I have
Xfce on that, to see how it fares against LXDE, but I use it so rarely
that I still don't know. It runs XP most of the time, as I use
peripherals and proprietary software which are Windows-only.

I do have a netbook which runs Ubuntu of a couple of years ago. To be
honest, I don't know much about the works, other than its networking.
I think it runs as light a version of Gnome as was possible then, and
there's no way it will ever handle the current Gnome. The hard drive is
8GB. But it does what I want it to do, which is mostly to be a thin
client to my home server, and it's a fraction of the weight of the
laptop, which is better described as a 'portable computer'.

Knoppix hasn't come on a CD for a long time (I have a copy of one of
the last CD versions, and it fixed a grub problem when nothing else
would) but even on DVD, it has used LXDE for a year or two.

--
Joe


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Old 08-10-2012, 02:08 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 18:35 +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 08 Aug 2012 at 16:23:28 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
> > Subject says it all.
>
> How can this be [OT]? It's about Debian. It concerns Wheezy. And the
> installer is involved, too.
>
> > I ask because I've read this from two different sources¹ now (the other
> > magazine is written in Spanish), so is this true?
> >
> > I could only find this mailing list thread² as the official reference but
> > from the comments on there it does not look like a final decision has
> > been taken yet on the proposed change and this is a rather big diversion
> > from the usual default to be passed so inadvertently to the users (yes,
> > plain users do not read "debian-devel" ;-P).
>
> The decision could possibly be reversed if someone could find and
> implement a way of getting the GNOME task on CD-1.

Oops, I first worked off other mails, now I'm working up the Debian
mails. Pardon, I opened a similar thread, since this was announced at
LAU.

Regards,
Ralf



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Old 08-10-2012, 02:23 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:41:37 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Thu 09 Aug 2012 at 16:33:39 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 16:43:38 +0100, Brian wrote:
>>
>> > You've already provided a major reference for the discussion which
>> > has taken place on debian-devel. It included controversy (altering
>> > the status quo always does) but it really does come down to size. The
>> > first CD is not big enough to hold GNOME but I assume it will be on
>> > the first DVD. So maybe the decision was quickly made but it didn't
>> > come from nowhere.
>>
>> Well, the idea came from one mind, that's for sure :-)
>
> Really for sure?

Yes, but in the sense of "someone" (a human being, a person → "one" as a
pronoun) not "a single person" (→ "one" as a numeral) as you seemed to
interpret :-)

> https://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2012/05/msg00025.html

(aside note: why "https://" for public mailing list?)

That post selects no specific DE, it simply enumerates a problem and
gives some alternatives. Fair.

> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/07/msg00115.html

And the same goes here.

I understand there's a new problem to solve but I also understand it has
to be discussed at some level as usual, right?
yet still there
>> are many questions floating in the air and not just because of the
>> decision itself but (warning, rant starts here):
>>
>> 1/ The time of the change (when freeze is already in place)
>
> Freeze exception. To accomodate GNOME or KDE on CD#1 both DEs would have
> had to be cut down. More work for maintainers and complaints from users.

There are exceptions (single packages that can be updated) and exceptions
(changes in the installer). Anyway, if the problem was detected back to
the first days of May there was enough time to have reached a solution
before the freeze took place (Wheezy was frozen in later June).

>> 2/ The nature of the change (the installer is a key piece of any OS and
>> it has to be well tested and yes, I run the installer from time to time
>> in a VM to see if there's something missing or that fails)
>
> The installer hasn't left beta-1 yet. Plenty of time left.

Oh, good. But then I wonder why people is reluctant to make another
changes in the installer like the one exposed at bug #684128 because we
are plenty of time, aren't we? >:-)

>> 3/ No feedback (there can be another alternatives to XFCE)
>
> Ratpoison?

Why not? If that's what people wants (let users decice!). There are other
options, of course.

>> > The way the artwork for Wheezy was chosen also had its critics. See
>> > the June archive for debian-desktop. The work is done by people who
>> > step forward and surveys are not necessarily going to make that
>> > happen.
>>
>> Choosing the background, banner colours "et al" and defaulting a DE
>> from the installer are not quite the same, I'd say >:-)
>
> But the process of how the decisions are made and who makes them is the
> same.

Yes, but that does not change the fact a decision (being a big change or
a small one) is wrong or badly put.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 08-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 14:13 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> Do you really think that XFCE is tested in the same way that GNOME
> (and
> the same goes for Razor-QT and KDE, for instance)? I mean, there are
> more
> GNOME/KDE users out there than XFCE/LXDE/Razor-QT and more users
> means
> well probed software. To make a DE as a default for a distribution
> without being tested intensively can give a bad impression to
> newcomers.

I suspect that most of the Linux Audio Community does use Xfce and LXDE
under extreme hardcore conditions. Both are tested very well. Non of
them is shit,as unstable DEs such as e17 are.
I'm using Xfce on several distros, for a while there where issues
regarding to GNOME apps, e.g. I experienced issues with Evolution
running on Xfce, but those are fixed.


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Old 08-10-2012, 03:19 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Fri, 2012-08-10 at 14:23 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> Why not? If that's what people wants (let users decice!). There are
> other options, of course.

By upstream GNOME3 force to install pulseaudio, when I upgraded once
upon a time, GNOME2 became GNOME3 and pulseaudio had broken my Debian.
Than I got rid of pulseaudio, but GNOME3 has broken the common audio
workflow, the workflow audio engineers are accustomed by using Apple,
Microsoft and Linux.

GNOME3 isn't a successor of GNOME2, Xfce is much closer to GNOME2.

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 08-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:19:38 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-08-10 at 14:23 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> Why not? If that's what people wants (let users decice!). There are
>> other options, of course.
>
> By upstream GNOME3 force to install pulseaudio, when I upgraded once
> upon a time, GNOME2 became GNOME3 and pulseaudio had broken my Debian.
> Than I got rid of pulseaudio, but GNOME3 has broken the common audio
> workflow, the workflow audio engineers are accustomed by using Apple,
> Microsoft and Linux.
>
> GNOME3 isn't a successor of GNOME2, Xfce is much closer to GNOME2.

That's irrelevant because we are not debating on personal tastes
(everyone has their own preferences).

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 08-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:24:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 14:13 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> Do you really think that XFCE is tested in the same way that GNOME (and
>> the same goes for Razor-QT and KDE, for instance)? I mean, there are
>> more
>> GNOME/KDE users out there than XFCE/LXDE/Razor-QT and more users means
>> well probed software. To make a DE as a default for a distribution
>> without being tested intensively can give a bad impression to
>> newcomers.
>
> I suspect that most of the Linux Audio Community does use Xfce and LXDE
> under extreme hardcore conditions. Both are tested very well.

You can't know because Debian XFCE is very different from another
distribution XFCE so unless all of the Linux Audio Community users are
using wheezy you can't but guess.

> Non of them is shit,as unstable DEs such as e17 are.

Please, avoid insulting another desktops >:-/

> I'm using Xfce on several distros, for a while there where issues
> regarding to GNOME apps, e.g. I experienced issues with Evolution
> running on Xfce, but those are fixed.

Again, we are not talking about every user preferences. Defaults
shouldn't come from there but accomodate to what the majority wants.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 08-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Brian
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 14:23:38 +0000, Camaleón wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:41:37 +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> > But the process of how the decisions are made and who makes them is the
> > same.
>
> Yes, but that does not change the fact a decision (being a big change or
> a small one) is wrong or badly put.

So we have appropriate mailing lists and the BTS to express our views on
the quality of the decision for the choice of a default DE on CD#1.
Apart from the one reference I have given previously I have seen nothing
of any substance yet. There is this thread which could be added to:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2012/08/msg00020.html


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Old 08-10-2012, 05:36 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Will upcoming Debian 8 release default to XFCE for the CD media?

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:22:48 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 14:23:38 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 19:41:37 +0100, Brian wrote:
>>
>> > But the process of how the decisions are made and who makes them is
>> > the same.
>>
>> Yes, but that does not change the fact a decision (being a big change
>> or a small one) is wrong or badly put.
>
> So we have appropriate mailing lists and the BTS to express our views on
> the quality of the decision for the choice of a default DE on CD#1.

Yes, and here we had a problem with communication: users were not aware
about this "issue" until they've read it from external sources (blogs,
magazines, etc...). I'm susbscribed to Debian News and Debian Announce
(and now added debian-devel and debian-devel-anounce) in a hope of trying
to track these changes/decisions very closely because I'm interested on
them but I wonder if this is just an impossible goal to achieve unless
normal users subscribe to all of the development mailing lists.

> Apart from the one reference I have given previously I have seen nothing
> of any substance yet.

Sadly, me neither :-(

> There is this thread which could be added to:
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2012/08/msg00020.html

Thanks, but still nothing clear (is a thread with only one reply which
adds no additional info).

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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