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-   -   question for the listmasters - bounce threshold? (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-user/65802-question-listmasters-bounce-threshold.html)

Nate Duehr 04-07-2008 08:04 PM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
server is bouncing messages and that:


"If those bounces pass a certain threshold, our bounce-detection will
forcibly remove your subscription."

They also nicely (unlike a lot of list server setups) provide a link to
the bounce so I can read it.


In every case, it's due to BLATENT spam getting onto the lists that my
SA setup is rejecting at delivery-time.


They do kindly "offer" a solution:

"If you are using 'Before-Queue Content filtering' and you think that
this mail is wrong, you should whitelist liszt.debian.org from Content
filtering."


But that's not a solution. The Debian lists according to my logs are by
FAR the worst lists I'm on for allowing spam through, and if my
ULTRA-simple SA setup can stop these things...


Well anyway...

I'm certainly not going to whitelist Debian while it's still my highest
source of spam. But the message doesn't indicate the ACTUAL number of
bounces that are required before a removal happens.


Anyone ever hit the real number and know how many it takes? I've tried
replying to and/or contacting the Listmasters in other polite ways and
never receive a response.


Is it a big secret what the real thresholds are?

I read their message this way:

"We can't keep even simple spam off our lists, but we've implemented
automatic bounce removal. Please don't filter at delivery time."


To which I say... meh. Just let it fail and take me off the list if you
can't do as simple a setup as mine is here... I have nothing fancy going
on... and don't use any of the "super aggressive" anti-spam measures.
Just "normal" ones.


Nate


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Andrew Sackville-West 04-07-2008 10:02 PM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 02:04:21PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
> I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
> server is bouncing messages and that:

maybe don't bounce them. either REJECT them at smtp time or simply
blackhole them.

if you're bouncing them, you've already gone to the trouble to receive
them... blackhole works great and never needs empyting.

A

Kamaraju S Kusumanchi 04-08-2008 02:44 AM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 02:04:21PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
>> I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
>> server is bouncing messages and that:
>
> maybe don't bounce them. either REJECT them at smtp time or simply
> blackhole them.
>
> if you're bouncing them, you've already gone to the trouble to receive
> them... blackhole works great and never needs empyting.

Another problem with bouncing is that almost all of spam email forge the
>From header. So if the OP is bouncing spam emails, they go to some other
person (often known misdirected bounces) and not to the spammer.

I suggest you follow Andrew suggestion and just reject spam emails at the
smtp level using 55x error if you want to reject an email. Please stop
bouncing emails.

raju
--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Mark Allums 04-08-2008 03:12 AM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:


On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 02:04:21PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:

I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
server is bouncing messages and that:

maybe don't bounce them. either REJECT them at smtp time or simply
blackhole them.

if you're bouncing them, you've already gone to the trouble to receive
them... blackhole works great and never needs empyting.


Another problem with bouncing is that almost all of spam email forge the

From header. So if the OP is bouncing spam emails, they go to some other

person (often known misdirected bounces) and not to the spammer.

I suggest you follow Andrew suggestion and just reject spam emails at the
smtp level using 55x error if you want to reject an email. Please stop
bouncing emails.

raju



This is a nice solution for those who can use it. But I think most
people don't control their own email servers, they must rely on a
provider. This is the case for me. My provider does not give me the
option, it bounces perceived spam without asking me, and I only figured
it out when another list I am on stopped sending me my own posts.


There are a couple of solutions for people who don't want to risk
missing anything. One, whitelisting an address, server, or domain,
which still doesn't completely solve the problem with my service
provider, and two, adding the list adress(es) to one's address book.
This also doesn't work perfectly with my provider. I must combine the
two methods, and also turn *on* the email filter and set it to very low
threshold (allow most messages). With the filter on, messages which are
thought to be spam are more likely to be allowed through, they are just
marked with a [SPAM] tag.


However, the OP does not want to turn off his spam filter, and I don't
blame him, so these solutions will not work for him. (And don't work
perfectly for everyone who has no say in the matter.)


It would be nice if the list server just ignored bounced mail that was
bounced due to a spam filter. Bounced for other reasons, okay, deal
with it. But for rejected spam, ignore.


Nate Duehr (or Original Poster):

I got a response after emailing the listmaster (after some time had
passed) about this same issue. That person did not really explain the
policy (nor defend it), but they did send a few stats. The Debian lists
do not drop you for a set number of bounces, they drop you if you exceed
80% bounces. That is, for every one hundred messages sent to you, your
spam filter bounces eighty of them.


To me, that is a pretty generous threshold, and I can live with that. I
get some spam in my list folder using whitelisting, but I can live with
that, too.


Still, I would set a different policy if I were running a list.


--
Mark Allums


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Kamaraju S Kusumanchi 04-08-2008 04:22 AM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
Mark Allums wrote:
>
> This is a nice solution for those who can use it. But I think most
> people don't control their own email servers, they must rely on a
> provider. This is the case for me. My provider does not give me the
> option, it bounces perceived spam without asking me, and I only figured
> it out when another list I am on stopped sending me my own posts.

I think they should just use a better provider! One option is to use a throw
away email address from gmail or yahoo etc., for subscribing to public
mailing lists.

If the mail service provider is bouncing emails irresponsibly, I would be
surprised if their IP addresses dont end up in blocklists such as spamcop
blocklist. That would only rub salt into the wound.

hth
raju
--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Nate Duehr 04-10-2008 12:02 AM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 02:04:21PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
server is bouncing messages and that:


maybe don't bounce them. either REJECT them at smtp time or simply
blackhole them.

if you're bouncing them, you've already gone to the trouble to receive
them... blackhole works great and never needs empyting.


"Bounce" is their word. I'm rejecting.

Nate WY0X


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Richard Hector 04-10-2008 04:45 AM

question for the listmasters - bounce threshold?
 
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 14:04 -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
> I get a warning from the Debian listservers once in a while that my
> server is bouncing messages and that:
>
> "If those bounces pass a certain threshold, our bounce-detection will
> forcibly remove your subscription."
>
> They also nicely (unlike a lot of list server setups) provide a link to
> the bounce so I can read it.
>
> In every case, it's due to BLATENT spam getting onto the lists that my
> SA setup is rejecting at delivery-time.

Seems it would be quite nice if the list server could detect that a
particular message was rejected by a higher number of recipients than
normal, and not count it towards the stats. Assuming that there's a
significant number of recipients who do such filtering, of course.

Richard



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