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Old 04-03-2012, 02:01 PM
Chris Bannister
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 12:48:24PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> I'd suggest this instead:
>
> Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages by default and
> is, for its robustness, the preferred program for package management
> from console, to perform system installation, and major system
> upgrades to releases as of Squeeze.
>
> What do you think?

For a start it is possibly all just hot air unless it is discussed on
the debian-doc list and/or a patch submitted against the debian-faq
package. I know that you are involved in translations and hence have
some influence/knowledge so I suggest:

Note: Starting with Squeeze, apt-get now installs recommended packages
by default and is the preferred program to perform system installation
and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive
package management.

--
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-- Napoleon Bonaparte


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Old 04-03-2012, 09:35 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Mi, 04 apr 12, 02:01:41, Chris Bannister wrote:
>
> For a start it is possibly all just hot air unless it is discussed on
> the debian-doc list and/or a patch submitted against the debian-faq
> package. I know that you are involved in translations and hence have
> some influence/knowledge so I suggest:

I already offered to send a patch

> Note: Starting with Squeeze, apt-get now installs recommended packages
> by default and is the preferred program to perform system installation
> and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive
> package management.

I like the simplicity of it, but it's not correct as it is now (apt-get
installs recommends since lenny). Let me try to rephrase it:

Note that apt-get installs recommended packages by default since
Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform
system installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be
preferred for interactive package management.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:46 PM
Lisi
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since
> * * Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform
> * * system installation and major system upgrades.

Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? A present
state due to a past action. "Depuis" in French requires the present, but
surely not "since" in English? [I hasten to say that I am referring to the
English dialect of English ;-) ]

Lisi


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Old 04-04-2012, 01:38 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since
>> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform
>> system installation and major system upgrades.
>
> Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely?

"since" makes that redundant.
One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-)

<snipped>

>
> Lisi
>
>
My suggestions:-

1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succint.
Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default.
Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended
program to perform system installation and major system upgrades.

2. How I'd write it:-
Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major
system upgrades.[*3]

3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation
in their native language.


[*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-)
[*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the
archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they
usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls.
[*3] "it's not what it said last year" Likewise the weather forecast.
"in my day we wore onions on our belts" We call it evolution. Move along.


Kind regards

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Old 04-04-2012, 09:01 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Mi, 04 apr 12, 11:38:29, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> My suggestions:-
>
> 1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succint.
> Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default.
> Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended
> program to perform system installation and major system upgrades.
>
> 2. How I'd write it:-
> Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major
> system upgrades.[*3]
>
> 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation
> in their native language.

Not fair, most languages don't have enough contributors to translate the
documentation, and translations may have issues themselves.

> [*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-)

I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be too much jargon?

> [*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the
> archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they
> usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls.

Do you mean the mention of aptitude? I don't see it as a counter
argument, but a genuine recommendation. As mentioned elsewhere in this
thread, it's very useful for me and probably others too.

One more try:

Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended packages by
default. Beginning with the release of Squeeze, apt-get is also the
recommended program to perform system installation and major system
upgrades. aptitude may be preferred for interactive use.

> [*3] "it's not what it said last year" Likewise the weather forecast.
> "in my day we wore onions on our belts" We call it evolution. Move along.

He, he

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:24 AM
Lisi
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Wednesday 04 April 2012 02:38:29 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> 2. How I'd write it:-
> Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major
> system upgrades.[*3]
>
> 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation
> in their native language.

:-) +1

Lisi


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justin schrieb:
> iotop cannot be used as user anymore.
> Any suggestions how to proceed?
>
> Leave it to root (Fedora and Suses way)
> suid it (bad in my view)

I suggest to have a suid USE flag (disabled by default) so the user can
choose between the two. Maybe advertise this change in an elog message.


Best regards,
Ch=C3=AD-Thanh Christopher Nguy=E1=BB=85n
 
Old 04-04-2012, 10:28 AM
Lisi
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by
> * * default.

...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......

;-)
Lisi


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Old 04-04-2012, 11:00 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On 04/04/12 19:01, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 04 apr 12, 11:38:29, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> My suggestions:-
>>
>> 1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succin*c*t.
>> Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default.
>> Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended
>> program to perform system installation and major system upgrades.
>>
>> 2. How I'd write it:-
>> Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major
>> system upgrades.[*3]
>>
>> 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation
>> in their native language.
>
> Not fair, most languages don't have enough contributors to translate the
> documentation, and translations may have issues themselves.

That's a problem that requires solving, the alternative is to expect
people to master a second language. That *is not fair*.

>
>> [*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-)
>
> I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be too much jargon?

IMO Yes (too much jargon).
Best to keep it simple. Footnotes could be used for those who don't
understand what "recommended" means in the context of Debian packaging

Is the question "which tool to upgrade?" or "which tool is best to
install packages?" They both have correct answers, but only the second
question has multiple correct answers.

My preference is "drill up" for detail in this instance (the basics are
most easily accessed). It's like instructions for operating a vending
machine as opposed to a manual for building one. Developer docs and mans
should be drill down for simple.

>
>> [*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the
>> archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they
>> usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls.
>
> Do you mean the mention of aptitude? I don't see it as a counter
> argument, but a genuine recommendation. As mentioned elsewhere in this
> thread, it's very useful for me and probably others too.

No. I meant the historical context (before, since, etc).
Aptitude works well for many people - as do other package managers. Are
any but apt relevant in this particular context?

If I were writing instructions for a plant label on how to pot the plant
out - I'll recommend using a spade for digging a hole. Other implements
can be used to dig holes, and in some situations are better than (some)
spades, and then there are different spades.... but that information
belongs in a booklet/degree "How to dig a hole".

(Yes, you can use a shovel, but a spade is recommended)

>
> One more try:
>
> Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended packages by
> default.

I suspect that would be correctly understood by most English speakers.
I would insert a footnote explaining "recommended" and possibly the
relevant stanza in apt.conf.

> Beginning with the release of Squeeze,

Some will have problems with the historical context - does that mean
that on that day all Debian releases "installed recommended"?
And is it relevant? (it's not Debian FAQ 2008).

> apt-get is also the
> recommended program to perform system installation and major system
> upgrades.

Some will want to know why waijig and cupt aren't mentioned.
Perhaps the following belongs in a footnote also.

> aptitude may be preferred for interactive use.

<snipped>

IMO the documentation should be written (and read) in the current
context, which is Squeeze and later. Historical references only confuse
the issue. I maintain a number of older Debian installs (Sarge and Etch)
- but I don't expect the current documentation to be relevant to them,
or Spud. Then there's the future...

>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei



Kind regards


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Old 04-04-2012, 11:14 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On 04/04/12 20:28, Lisi wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by
>> default.
>
> ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......
>
> ;-)
> Lisi
>
>
Even trickier - since Lenny developers have been much more cautious
about "recommending" packages. Since Lenny SOE engineers have not had to
modify apt.conf so unnecessary and unwanted packages weren't
automatically installed as "recommended" (Sarge and Etch had problems in
that respect). So it's not just a line in apt.conf that changed with
Lenny becoming stable.


Oh, and...
... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended packages
by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though it's correct.


Kind regards

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Old 04-04-2012, 11:28 AM
Lisi
 
Default debian-faq (was ... upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)

On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended packages
> by default. *So I believe "has" is redundant, even though it's correct.

What is wrong with :

Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default.

Why, at this stage and now the aim is clarity, not leave out the "since
Lenny"? The page could be dated, so that it is clear that it does not refer
to e.g. 2005, for the benefit of those who cannot cope with advice given some
years ago conflicting with advice given now.

Lisi


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