On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:28:59 +0100, Lisi wrote in message
<201204041128.59935.lisi.reisz@gmail.com>:

> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by
> > * * default.
>
> ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......

..and not "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installations*
recommended packages by default."? ;o)

..no "has" is a _wee_ bit different from your "Note that since
Lenny, apt-get *installed* recommended packages by default." ;o)

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Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by
> >
> > default.
>
> ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......

Why? It still does.

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Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> > ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended
> > packages by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though
> > it's correct.
>
> What is wrong with :
>
> Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default.

How long? Maybe it stops doing so tomorrow?

I am perfectly fine with "installs". Thats what it does up to do today.
Since Lenny says since then, but past tense is IMHO misleading since apt-
get still does it. Of course I can write:

apt-get has installed recommended packages since Lenny. It still installs
recommended packages in Squeeze. It is likely that it will install
recommended packages in Wheezy. And heck it might even do that in Wheezy
+1.

Now seriously, I prefer the one sentence version of it with "installs".

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On Wednesday 04 April 2012 18:58:07 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > *Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by
> > >
> > > * * default.
> >
> > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......
>
> Why? It still does.

Yes, that is why it should be in the perfect. It did and still does. The
perfect tense in English describes a present state due to a past action, and
is in many ways a present tense rather than a past one. "Installs" excludes
the past, "has installed" includes past and present. This is one of the many
English tenses/moods which is difficult for non-native speakers to
understand, let alone get right.

"Since Lenny apt-get installs" is wrong grammatically in English. (You and I
can discuss this off-list if you like, Andrei.)

Lisi


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On Wednesday 04 April 2012 19:00:44 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> > > ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended
> > > packages by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though
> > > it's correct.
> >
> > What is wrong with :
> >
> > Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default.
>
> How long? Maybe it stops doing so tomorrow?
>
> I am perfectly fine with "installs". Thats what it does up to do today.
> Since Lenny says since then, but past tense is IMHO misleading since apt-
> get still does it. Of course I can write:
>
> apt-get has installed recommended packages since Lenny. It still installs
> recommended packages in Squeeze. It is likely that it will install
> recommended packages in Wheezy. And heck it might even do that in Wheezy
> +1.
>
> Now seriously, I prefer the one sentence version of it with "installs".

But it is grammatically incorrect in English.

Lisi


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Am Donnerstag, 5. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 18:58:07 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi:
> > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages
> > > > by
> > > >
> > > > default.
> > >
> > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*......
> >
> > Why? It still does.
>
> Yes, that is why it should be in the perfect. It did and still does.
> The perfect tense in English describes a present state due to a past
> action, and is in many ways a present tense rather than a past one.
> "Installs" excludes the past, "has installed" includes past and
> present. This is one of the many English tenses/moods which is
> difficult for non-native speakers to understand, let alone get right.
>
> "Since Lenny apt-get installs" is wrong grammatically in English. (You
> and I can discuss this off-list if you like, Andrei.)

No thanks.

Whatever is correct english. I am no native speaker. If perfect tense - I
darkly remember something like that from my english lessons in school
quite some time ago - also includes the present I am fine with it.

Thanks,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
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On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote:
> > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since
> >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform
> >> system installation and major system upgrades.
> >
> > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely?
>
> "since" makes that redundant.
> One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-)

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296

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On Friday 06 April 2012 20:34:28 Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> > On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since
> > >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to
> > >> perform system installation and major system upgrades.
> > >
> > > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely?
> >
> > "since" makes that redundant.
> > One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-)
>
> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296
>
> --
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte

That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is
quite simply wrong in English to say "since.... installs". Leave out the
words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses some of the
intended meaning.

Lisi


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On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 12:35:00AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 04 apr 12, 02:01:41, Chris Bannister wrote:
> >
> > For a start it is possibly all just hot air unless it is discussed on
> > the debian-doc list and/or a patch submitted against the debian-faq
> > package. I know that you are involved in translations and hence have
> > some influence/knowledge so I suggest:
>
> I already offered to send a patch
>
> > Note: Starting with Squeeze, apt-get now installs recommended packages
> > by default and is the preferred program to perform system installation
> > and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive
> > package management.
>
> I like the simplicity of it, but it's not correct as it is now (apt-get
> installs recommends since lenny). Let me try to rephrase it:

OK.

> Note that apt-get installs recommended packages by default since
> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform
> system installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be
> preferred for interactive package management.


Is the point of "installing recommended packages by default" related
to apt-get being the preferred program for "major system upgrades". That
is, do they need to be in the same paragraph?

AIUI, no one knows *yet* whether aptitude or apt-get will be preferred
for Wheezy until the usual testing takes place near the time of actual
release.

So:

Note: Starting with Lenny, apt-get has installed recommended packages by
default. For Squeeze it is the preferred program to perform system
installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for
interactive package management.

Is it *really* an FAQ?

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On Vi, 06 apr 12, 20:54:47, Lisi wrote:
>
> That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is
> quite simply wrong in English to say "since.... installs". Leave out the
> words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses some of the
> intended meaning.

Debian documentation is generally written in US English, does the above
still apply?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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