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Old 04-03-2012, 03:06 PM
ntrfug
 
Default correct English usage

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500
Indulekha <indulekha@theunworthy.com> wrote:
> >
> > Are all these distionnaries wrong?
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Frenkiel
> > ---1463809023-1608600801-1333448123=:30347--
> >
>
> There is nothing wrong with your English or those definitions,
> they're just obscure and have fallen out of popular usage. I've
> frequently observed that people for whom English is a second
> language are more literate that the average American.
>
There IS something wrong with his English, and several have tried to
explain it -- he's using a word contrary to its established common
meaning. If he's more interested in impressing dictionary editors than
in conveying his idea, more power to him. Otherwise, he should accept
the explanation offered by native speakers.

It's pretty arrogant to suggest that native speakers of another
language are less literate than you, because your own understanding
differs from theirs.


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Old 04-03-2012, 03:41 PM
Camaleón
 
Default correct English usage

On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:50:07 +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:

(careful when quoting...)

> * Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> [120403 13:51]:
>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500, Indulekha wrote:
>>
>> > In linux.debian.user, you wrote:
>>
>> >> On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> As far as I know, Squeeze is posterior to Lenny, and the
>> >>>> recommended
>
> Commonly-used English terms which are apropos to this matter are
> "precede", "predecessor", "succeed", "successor", "antecedent", and
> "descendant". Thus, one could say:

(...)

That's why the documenting guys are perfect for this work as they're
usually skilled at language. I bet they're the most indicated for finding
the proper wording.

But the above does not imply that using "posterior" in the above stanza
is wrong. It can be improved (we are not writers not editors) but not
incorrect. Those "old Latin" lovers (me included :-P) would even use the
term "ulterior" for the said meaning.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 04-03-2012, 04:05 PM
Indulekha
 
Default correct English usage

you wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500
> Indulekha <indulekha@theunworthy.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Are all these distionnaries wrong?
>> >
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with your English or those definitions,
>> they're just obscure and have fallen out of popular usage. I've
>> frequently observed that people for whom English is a second
>> language are more literate that the average American.
>>
> There IS something wrong with his English, and several have tried to
> explain it -- he's using a word contrary to its established common
> meaning. If he's more interested in impressing dictionary editors than
> in conveying his idea, more power to him. Otherwise, he should accept
> the explanation offered by native speakers.
>
> It's pretty arrogant to suggest that native speakers of another
> language are less literate than you, because your own understanding
> differs from theirs.
>
>

Well, my understanding is that of an English-speaking American. So,
shall I fetch a stepladder so you can get down from that high horse?


Having known many people from many countries over the decades, I
am quite confident that what I said is true.

--
❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤
Indulekha


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Old 04-03-2012, 04:39 PM
Tony van der Hoff
 
Default correct English usage

On 03/04/12 17:41, Camaleón wrote:

On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:50:07 +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:

(careful when quoting...)


* Camaleón<noelamac@gmail.com> [120403 13:51]:

On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500, Indulekha wrote:


In linux.debian.user, you wrote:



On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Paul E Condon wrote:


As far as I know, Squeeze is posterior to Lenny, and the
recommended


Commonly-used English terms which are apropos to this matter are
"precede", "predecessor", "succeed", "successor", "antecedent", and
"descendant". Thus, one could say:


(...)

That's why the documenting guys are perfect for this work as they're
usually skilled at language. I bet they're the most indicated for finding
the proper wording.

But the above does not imply that using "posterior" in the above stanza
is wrong. It can be improved (we are not writers not editors) but not
incorrect. Those "old Latin" lovers (me included :-P) would even use the
term "ulterior" for the said meaning.


Use whatever words you like; English is flexible enough (and has low
entropy anyway) that you'll be understood. Your English is pretty good,
but it still appears stilted, due to the use of unnatural words in a
given context, as one would expect from a non-native. That said, I wish
my attempts at French were as good as your English!


In this post, "indicated for" is probably the wrong term for the
context. It roughly means "prescribed". It is unclear what you really
mean, but I would guess "capable of".


"Ulterior" is certainly not a synonym for "posterior", and a Latin Lover
is something totally different


But, as I said before, it doesn't really matter...
--
Tony van der Hoff | mailto:tony@vanderhoff.org
Aričge, France |


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Old 04-03-2012, 04:56 PM
Lisi
 
Default correct English usage

On Tuesday 03 April 2012 15:42:13 Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
> On 04/03/2012 05:38 PM, Lisi wrote:
> >> > Then, for people whose native language is not English, in some
> >> > cases the only way to find the right word seems to be try and error.
> >
> > Or accept the word of educated native speakers.
>
> [I'm non native english]
>
> It's hard to convince someone with "Shut up I'm right you're wrong"
> nowadays.

It always has been. But an argument can go on just too long, and if a
non-native speaker is convinced that he/she knows better there is no point in
carrying on the discussion.

Lisi


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Old 04-03-2012, 04:58 PM
Lisi
 
Default correct English usage

On Tuesday 03 April 2012 15:58:45 Kelly Clowers wrote:
> >> In general there is a tendency in modern American English to
> >> use rather simple words or descriptive phrases made of simple
> >> words rather than a single very precise but less well known word.
> >
> > *Again, is that specific to American English?
>
> Good question, I am not sure if the British and others are
> picking up this bad (IMO) habit.

My English teacher strogly advocated it!!

Lisi


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Old 04-03-2012, 05:21 PM
CamaleĂłn
 
Default correct English usage

On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:39:03 +0200, Tony van der Hoff wrote:

> On 03/04/12 17:41, CamaleĂłn wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:50:07 +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>>
>> (careful when quoting...)
>>
>>> * CamaleĂłn<noelamac@gmail.com> [120403 13:51]:
>>>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500, Indulekha wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In linux.debian.user, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Paul E Condon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I know, Squeeze is posterior to Lenny, and the
>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>
>>> Commonly-used English terms which are apropos to this matter are
>>> "precede", "predecessor", "succeed", "successor", "antecedent", and
>>> "descendant". Thus, one could say:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> That's why the documenting guys are perfect for this work as they're
>> usually skilled at language. I bet they're the most indicated for
>> finding the proper wording.
>>
>> But the above does not imply that using "posterior" in the above stanza
>> is wrong. It can be improved (we are not writers not editors) but not
>> incorrect. Those "old Latin" lovers (me included :-P) would even use
>> the term "ulterior" for the said meaning.
>
> Use whatever words you like; English is flexible enough (and has low
> entropy anyway) that you'll be understood. Your English is pretty good,
> but it still appears stilted, due to the use of unnatural words in a
> given context, as one would expect from a non-native. That said, I wish
> my attempts at French were as good as your English!

Hey, thanks!

I've never been living in English speaking countries and that's (→
language immersion) what helps most for having a more "natural" sounding.
In fact, all the English I know has been have learnt from my school
years, that is, an academic (and British) English :-)

> In this post, "indicated for" is probably the wrong term for the
> context. It roughly means "prescribed". It is unclear what you really
> mean, but I would guess "capable of".

Mmm... yes.

How about "appropriate"? Or "prepared"? "suited"? "qualified"? I could
have chosen any of those, in my non-English mind they all sound the same
good :-P

> "Ulterior" is certainly not a synonym for "posterior",

But it was, that's what I meant. It's not a term I would neither use in
my own language but it is still perfectly correct.

> and a Latin Lover is something totally different

(...)

Damn. I precisely enclosed "old Latin" in double quotes and used
uppercase "L" to avoid misinterpretations >:-)

Greetings,

--
CamaleĂłn


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Old 04-03-2012, 06:14 PM
John Jason Jordan
 
Default correct English usage

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 15:41:20 +0000 (UTC)
Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> dijo:

>But the above does not imply that using "posterior" in the above
>stanza is wrong. It can be improved (we are not writers not editors)
>but not incorrect. Those "old Latin" lovers (me included :-P) would
>even use the term "ulterior" for the said meaning.

(OT)

Latin POST, SUPRA and ULTRA meant 'after, following,' 'above, over,'
and 'beyond. All came into English as prefixes. And English borrowed so
many thousands of Latin words which already contained them as
prefixes that, over time, English speakers just reanalyzed them as
English prefixes.

The interesting part is that Latin applied endings to words in order to
form the comparative and superlative (like English -er and -est).
Thus, POSTERIOR, SUPERIOR and ULTERIOR meant 'more after, more
following,' 'more above, more over,' and 'more beyond. Languages do
funny things, especially when borrowing from another language.
Instead of becoming the comparative forms they became non-prefix
adjectives, and lost the comparative meaning.


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Old 04-03-2012, 07:36 PM
consultores
 
Default correct English usage

On 04/03/2012 09:05 AM, Indulekha wrote:

you wrote:

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500
Indulekha<indulekha@theunworthy.com> wrote:

Are all these distionnaries wrong?


There is nothing wrong with your English or those definitions,
they're just obscure and have fallen out of popular usage. I've
frequently observed that people for whom English is a second
language are more literate that the average American.


There IS something wrong with his English, and several have tried to
explain it -- he's using a word contrary to its established common
meaning. If he's more interested in impressing dictionary editors than
in conveying his idea, more power to him. Otherwise, he should accept
the explanation offered by native speakers.

It's pretty arrogant to suggest that native speakers of another
language are less literate than you, because your own understanding
differs from theirs.



Well, my understanding is that of an English-speaking American. So,
shall I fetch a stepladder so you can get down from that high horse?


Having known many people from many countries over the decades, I
am quite confident that what I said is true.

I have lost this thread, but please, remember that in US, Belize,
Canada, and English Guyana; the spoken language is a dialect of English;
and easily can be confirmed, because of the use of expressions as
"American English" (only 4 different dialects in America), "American"
(USian); in America the predominant language is a mixture of Spanish
dialects!


The other point, is that native speaker, does not mean "excellence"; it
only mean that this person just speaks one dialect/language from the
begining of his life!



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Old 04-03-2012, 08:14 PM
Lorenzo Sutton
 
Default correct English usage

On 03/04/12 21:36, consultores wrote:

On 04/03/2012 09:05 AM, Indulekha wrote:

you wrote:

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 05:29:56 -0500
Indulekha<indulekha@theunworthy.com> wrote:

Are all these distionnaries wrong?


There is nothing wrong with your English or those definitions,
they're just obscure and have fallen out of popular usage. I've
frequently observed that people for whom English is a second
language are more literate that the average American.


There IS something wrong with his English, and several have tried to
explain it -- he's using a word contrary to its established common
meaning. If he's more interested in impressing dictionary editors than
in conveying his idea, more power to him. Otherwise, he should accept
the explanation offered by native speakers.

It's pretty arrogant to suggest that native speakers of another
language are less literate than you, because your own understanding
differs from theirs.



Well, my understanding is that of an English-speaking American. So,
shall I fetch a stepladder so you can get down from that high horse?


Having known many people from many countries over the decades, I
am quite confident that what I said is true.


I have lost this thread, but please, remember that in US, Belize,
Canada, and English Guyana; the spoken language is a dialect of English;
and easily can be confirmed, because of the use of expressions as
"American English" (only 4 different dialects in America), "American"
(USian); in America the predominant language is a mixture of Spanish
dialects!

The other point, is that native speaker, does not mean "excellence"; it
only mean that this person just speaks one dialect/language from the
begining of his life!


+1


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