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Old 03-31-2012, 02:40 PM
PMA
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

I've seen passionate debate on this issue, based
mainly on disrupted expectation (as the Bottom
guy opens the Top guy's email).

Seems to me the important thing is for a given
list to adopt one or the other style as standard
*for the list*.

Take a vote, asking, "Which is more important:
seeing the current message immediately (Top),
or keeping the flow in one-direction (Bottom)?"

PMA

P.S. ...unless, of course, a resolution would be
less fun than the debate.


Claudius Hubig wrote:

Hello Mika,

Mika Suomalainen<mika.henrik.mainio@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 31.03.2012 12:04, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

Especially when inline responding (bottom) and your loosy style is
mixed?

I already changed to bottom posting in Iceweasel and K9 mail.


Thanks. Though one should also take the time to trim the previous
mail to the parts one actually responds to.


But isn't posting HTML also forbidden?


Yes, although it is less of a problem for (most!) people, as their
clients either display the text-only or the HTML version, so adding
an HTML version ‘only’ increases the size of the email (by about
150%). Bad quoting styles, however, are always visible.

Did I mention that asking for a return receipt for a mailing list post
is kind of…strange? That is, do you really want all>30k subscribed
users to acknowledge the receipt of your post?

Best regards,

Claudius



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Old 03-31-2012, 03:32 PM
Claudius Hubig
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

Hello Peter,

PMA <PeterArmstrong@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
> Take a vote,

That vote already happened many years ago.

> asking, "Which is more important:
> seeing the current message immediately (Top),
> or keeping the flow in one-direction (Bottom)?"

Neither. Interleaved style is the way to go.

Best regards,

Claudius
--
Most burning issues generate far more heat than light.
Please use GPG: ECB0C2C7 4A4C4046 446ADF86 C08112E5 D72CDBA4
http://chubig.net telnet://nightfall.org:4242


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Old 03-31-2012, 03:55 PM
Tony van der Hoff
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

On 31/03/12 16:40, PMA wrote:

Seems to me the important thing is for a given
list to adopt one or the other style as standard
*for the list*.

Take a vote, asking, "Which is more important:
seeing the current message immediately (Top),
or keeping the flow in one-direction (Bottom)?"


Who needs a vote? The issue was settled many years ago.

Before you started posting here, the polite thing to do would have been
to read the list guidelines, and apply them. Seeing as you appear too
intellectually challenged to find them for yourself, here is the link:


http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_ and_Tips

Under the heading "Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips" you'll see the
entry:
"Respond in Interleaved style. Unnecessary quotes should be trimmed and
a question should precede an answer."


Isn't that adequately clear? It isn't a question of individual
preferences, or your religious leanings, it's a list rule, to be obeyed
by all correspondents, which exists for the elucication of all.


To quote:
"Why all these rules? Busy people spend valuable time monitoring lists
and responding to questions. The recommended practices make these
activities more efficient and pleasant."


--
Tony van der Hoff | mailto:tony@vanderhoff.org
Arige, France |


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Old 04-01-2012, 01:08 AM
Celejar
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:55:31 +0200
Tony van der Hoff <tony@vanderhoff.org> wrote:

...

> Before you started posting here, the polite thing to do would have been
> to read the list guidelines, and apply them. Seeing as you appear too
> intellectually challenged to find them for yourself, here is the link:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_ and_Tips
>
> Under the heading "Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips" you'll see the
> entry:
> "Respond in Interleaved style. Unnecessary quotes should be trimmed and
> a question should precede an answer."
>
> Isn't that adequately clear? It isn't a question of individual
> preferences, or your religious leanings, it's a list rule, to be obeyed
> by all correspondents, which exists for the elucication of all.
>
> To quote:
> "Why all these rules? Busy people spend valuable time monitoring lists
> and responding to questions. The recommended practices make these
> activities more efficient and pleasant."

I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority is,
but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute "official
information", and as others have noted, the official code of conduct
does not specify posting style.

Celejar


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Old 04-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Camalen
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:08:19 -0400, Celejar wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:55:31 +0200
> Tony van der Hoff <tony@vanderhoff.org> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Before you started posting here, the polite thing to do would have been
>> to read the list guidelines, and apply them. Seeing as you appear too
>> intellectually challenged to find them for yourself, here is the link:
>>
>> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_ and_Tips
>>
>> Under the heading "Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips" you'll see the
>> entry:
>> "Respond in Interleaved style. Unnecessary quotes should be trimmed and
>> a question should precede an answer."
>>
>> Isn't that adequately clear? It isn't a question of individual
>> preferences, or your religious leanings, it's a list rule, to be obeyed
>> by all correspondents, which exists for the elucication of all.
>>
>> To quote:
>> "Why all these rules? Busy people spend valuable time monitoring lists
>> and responding to questions. The recommended practices make these
>> activities more efficient and pleasant."
>
> I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority is,
> but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute "official
> information", and as others have noted, the official code of conduct
> does not specify posting style.

Those "rules" (I prefer to see them as "tips for good guidance") are
written by all of us, people like you or me, that is, people who
participate in the mailing lists.

Should someone wants (again) to open the debate about the proper way of
posting in a mailing list, I'd suggest doing a poll to see what the
majority of the participants have to say about the matter. I will be more
than happy to stick to what the most of the people wants.

Greetings,

--
Camalen


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Old 04-01-2012, 02:19 PM
PMA
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

Camalen wrote:

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:08:19 -0400, Celejar wrote:


On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:55:31 +0200
Tony van der Hoff<tony@vanderhoff.org> wrote:

...


Before you started posting here, the polite thing to do would have been
to read the list guidelines, and apply them. Seeing as you appear too
intellectually challenged to find them for yourself, here is the link:

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_ and_Tips

Under the heading "Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips" you'll see the
entry:
"Respond in Interleaved style. Unnecessary quotes should be trimmed and
a question should precede an answer."

Isn't that adequately clear? It isn't a question of individual
preferences, or your religious leanings, it's a list rule, to be obeyed
by all correspondents, which exists for the elucication of all.

To quote:
"Why all these rules? Busy people spend valuable time monitoring lists
and responding to questions. The recommended practices make these
activities more efficient and pleasant."


I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority is,
but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute "official
information", and as others have noted, the official code of conduct
does not specify posting style.


Those "rules" (I prefer to see them as "tips for good guidance") are
written by all of us, people like you or me, that is, people who
participate in the mailing lists.

Should someone wants (again) to open the debate about the proper way of
posting in a mailing list, I'd suggest doing a poll to see what the
majority of the participants have to say about the matter. I will be more
than happy to stick to what the most of the people wants.

Greetings,


Yes, and I'd suggest sending any future new subscriber a direct link
to the rules/tips agreed to -- or even the actual document -- rather
than insulting his intelligence later for not "finding for himself".


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Old 04-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Camalen
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:19:21 -0400, PMA wrote:

> Camalen wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:08:19 -0400, Celejar wrote:

(...)

>>> I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority
>>> is, but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute
>>> "official information", and as others have noted, the official code of
>>> conduct does not specify posting style.
>>
>> Those "rules" (I prefer to see them as "tips for good guidance") are
>> written by all of us, people like you or me, that is, people who
>> participate in the mailing lists.
>>
>> Should someone wants (again) to open the debate about the proper way of
>> posting in a mailing list, I'd suggest doing a poll to see what the
>> majority of the participants have to say about the matter. I will be
>> more than happy to stick to what the most of the people wants.
>>
>
> Yes, and I'd suggest sending any future new subscriber a direct link to
> the rules/tips agreed to -- or even the actual document -- rather than
> insulting his intelligence later for not "finding for himself".

Nobody has been insulted :-?

I don't know what kind of information a user receives when is subscribed
to the lists because I'm not "subscribed", I just follow them, read and
post (this is an open list, no need for subscription).

Anyway, it's normal for mailing list newcomers to be unaware of these
conventions, that's why I usually "politely" note that html formatted
messages need to be avoided and also top-posting when I see a bad
formatted post.

Worth to remember that common sense is the best of the rules.

Greetings,

--
Camalen


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Old 04-01-2012, 03:14 PM
Camalen
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

El 2012-04-01 a las 09:44 -0400, Miles Fidelman escribi:

(sending back to the list)

> Camalen wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:08:19 -0400, Celejar wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:55:31 +0200
>>> Tony van der Hoff<tony@vanderhoff.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Before you started posting here, the polite thing to do would have been
>>>> to read the list guidelines, and apply them. Seeing as you appear too
>>>> intellectually challenged to find them for yourself, here is the link:
>>>>
>>>> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_ and_Tips
>>>>
>>>> Under the heading "Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips" you'll see the
>>>> entry:
>>>> "Respond in Interleaved style. Unnecessary quotes should be trimmed and
>>>> a question should precede an answer."
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that adequately clear? It isn't a question of individual
>>>> preferences, or your religious leanings, it's a list rule, to be obeyed
>>>> by all correspondents, which exists for the elucication of all.
>>>>
>>>> To quote:
>>>> "Why all these rules? Busy people spend valuable time monitoring lists
>>>> and responding to questions. The recommended practices make these
>>>> activities more efficient and pleasant."
>>> I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority is,
>>> but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute "official
>>> information", and as others have noted, the official code of conduct
>>> does not specify posting style.
>> Those "rules" (I prefer to see them as "tips for good guidance") are
>> written by all of us, people like you or me, that is, people who
>> participate in the mailing lists.
>
> The question does raise two interesting points:
>
> - what IS the "official" process for setting rules (presumably, since
> the Debian project hosts these lists, and the servers they run on,
> somebody, through some process, has the authority to set rules for the
> lists, and post those rules to lists.debian.org) - but what are the
> details? anybody know?

I don't know, but the way this workes in other projects I've participated
these conventions are made and developed by their user members, which
includes all of us.

> - it turns out that there are TWO places that list rules of conduct for
> all Debian lists:
>
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ - which is silent on posting style
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists - which recommends interleaved posting,
> BUT points to the above as the "official rules of conduct"
>
> Somewhat confusing.
>
> Miles Fidelman

IMO, they both complement each other.

The only difference between "www.debian.org" and "wiki.debian.org" is
that normal users can edit the latter but only users with commit rights
can alter the former.

Greetings,

--
Camalen


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Old 04-01-2012, 03:41 PM
PMA
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

Camalen wrote:

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:19:21 -0400, PMA wrote:


Camalen wrote:

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:08:19 -0400, Celejar wrote:


(...)


I'm not sure who writes these rules, and what their exact authority
is, but the page itself acknowledges that it does not constitute
"official information", and as others have noted, the official code of
conduct does not specify posting style.


Those "rules" (I prefer to see them as "tips for good guidance") are
written by all of us, people like you or me, that is, people who
participate in the mailing lists.

Should someone wants (again) to open the debate about the proper way of
posting in a mailing list, I'd suggest doing a poll to see what the
majority of the participants have to say about the matter. I will be
more than happy to stick to what the most of the people wants.



Yes, and I'd suggest sending any future new subscriber a direct link to
the rules/tips agreed to -- or even the actual document -- rather than
insulting his intelligence later for not "finding for himself".


Nobody has been insulted :-?

Granted, no-one has screamed. I saw, BTW, only an unattributed quote,
so don't know whose it was.


I don't know what kind of information a user receives when is subscribed
to the lists because I'm not "subscribed", I just follow them, read and
post (this is an open list, no need for subscription).

Anyway, it's normal for mailing list newcomers to be unaware of these
conventions, that's why I usually "politely" note that html formatted
messages need to be avoided and also top-posting when I see a bad
formatted post.

Worth to remember that common sense is the best of the rules.

Greetings,



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Old 04-01-2012, 04:21 PM
Lisi
 
Default Posting styles -- Top vs Bottom

On Sunday 01 April 2012 16:41:50 PMA wrote:
> > Nobody has been insulted :-?
>
> Granted, no-one has screamed. * I saw, BTW, only an unattributed quote,
> so don't know whose it was.

In this case (as often!) you needed to have read the thread rather than
reacting to an out of context quote. We have all, of course, done the
latter. ;-)

Lisi


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