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Old 03-12-2012, 02:13 PM
Nikolaus Rath
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:03:14 -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>
>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:31:11 -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ubuntu has a "ppa-purge" script that not just removes Launchpad PPAs
>>>> from sources.list, but also automatically reverts any packages
>>>> installed from that PPA to the versions available in the official
>>>> archives.
>>>
>>> The only idea scares me :-}
>>
>> Why?
>
> Package managing can be sometimes difficult to deal for an automated
> routine and more that often needs human interaction.
>
> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is instructed to
> remove non official versions of the packages in favor of the ones
> available in Debian repositories.

Indeed, that's its intended use.

> Fine, but reverting ffmpeg from D-M to
> the official version it can be undesiderable or even break based on the
> current pining and priorities (it can leave your system with mixed
> libraries from differenet sources).

If you don't want to revert to the official versions, then you shouldn't
run a script whose purpose is to revert everything to the official
versions. That is, however, not an argument against the usefulness of
the script (or a reason to be scared of it).



Best,

-Nikolaus

--
»Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«

PGP fingerprint: 5B93 61F8 4EA2 E279 ABF6 02CF A9AD B7F8 AE4E 425C


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Old 03-12-2012, 02:49 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:13:07 -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> Ubuntu has a "ppa-purge" script that not just removes Launchpad PPAs
>>>>> from sources.list, but also automatically reverts any packages
>>>>> installed from that PPA to the versions available in the official
>>>>> archives.
>>>>
>>>> The only idea scares me :-}
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> Package managing can be sometimes difficult to deal for an automated
>> routine and more that often needs human interaction.
>>
>> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is instructed
>> to remove non official versions of the packages in favor of the ones
>> available in Debian repositories.
>
> Indeed, that's its intended use.

Yup, and that's why I fear of such automatisms: they don't think what can
be better for you on every case but execute. I would like they can be a
bit more wise :-)

>> Fine, but reverting ffmpeg from D-M to the official version it can be
>> undesiderable or even break based on the current pining and priorities
>> (it can leave your system with mixed libraries from differenet
>> sources).
>
> If you don't want to revert to the official versions, then you shouldn't
> run a script whose purpose is to revert everything to the official
> versions.

For me it can be useful to collect a list of the packages installed from
a non-oficial source but I wouldn't rely on it to make any change.

> That is, however, not an argument against the usefulness of the script
> (or a reason to be scared of it).

To me, yes. But don't take it as if I am against *this* precisely script
because that's not the case. I also avoid performing unattended upgrades,
for instance. You can see it as "the old dog experience".

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 03-13-2012, 03:20 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 02:46:59PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is instructed to
> remove non official versions of the packages in favor of the ones
> available in Debian repositories.

Right! As its name says. Consider the command "rm" in the same vein.

> Fine, but reverting ffmpeg from D-M to
> the official version it can be undesiderable or even break based on the
> current pining and priorities (it can leave your system with mixed
> libraries from differenet sources).

More precisely, *having D-M* in your sources list can be undesirable¹; it
can leave your system with mixed libraries from different sources.

An interesting read starts here:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/03/threads.html#00151

¹Particularly:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/03/msg00151.html

"... we have a policy to just close a bug with a very short
explanation if we notice that the crash involves a package from
debian-multimedia.org; everything else is absolutely not worth
the trouble. Cf. also [1]."

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMultimedia/FAQ

--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


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Old 03-13-2012, 06:54 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Du, 11 mar 12, 12:31:11, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Ubuntu has a "ppa-purge" script that not just removes Launchpad PPAs
> from sources.list, but also automatically reverts any packages installed
> from that PPA to the versions available in the official archives.
>
> Has anyone ever written something similar for Debian? I'm thinking of a
> script that deletes all packages that are not retrievable from any of
> the registered sources,

aptitude purge ~o (has been mentioned already)

> and downgrades (or upgrades) all packages to the most recent version
> available.

Pinning one source lower than the one you want to keep and perform an
upgrade should do the trick and I think it can be done with
apt-get/aptitude command line options only, but I'm too lazy to check.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:03 AM
Mark Blakeney
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:19:26 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> In my limited experience of "purge-ppa", it's worked very well.

About 2 months ago I added a ppa to my Ubuntu 11.10 laptop, but didn't
like it so immediately just did a "ppa-purge" on that ppa which
proceeded to remove *every* X/gui/video based package. I.e. it
effectively turned my ubuntu desktop into ubuntu server with just a
terminal login prompt.

I will be much more careful with ppa-purge from now on!


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Old 03-13-2012, 08:16 AM
Tom H
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:19:26 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:31:11 -0400, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ubuntu has a "ppa-purge" script that not just removes Launchpad PPAs
>>>> from sources.list, but also automatically reverts any packages
>>>> installed from that PPA to the versions available in the official
>>>> archives.
>>>
>>> The only idea scares me :-}
>>>
>>>> Has anyone ever written something similar for Debian? I'm thinking of
>>>> a script that deletes all packages that are not retrievable from any
>>>> of the registered sources, and downgrades (or upgrades) all packages
>>>> to the most recent version available.
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any, but I would prefer to do that job manually and
>>> carefully picking the available sources, packages and versions as
>>> possible candidates for installing/upgrading/downgrading.
>>>
>>> Anyway, porting the script to Debian shouldn't be difficult but I'm a
>>> bit reluctant of that sort of automatisms.
>>
>> In my limited experience of "purge-ppa", it's worked very well.
>
> My guess is that is highly dependant on user's configuration: the lesser
> repositories available + basic pinning rules = the higher chances for
> getting successful results.

That applies to non-Debian repositories but not to PPAs that's
probably why Ubunical created "apt-add-repository" with which you can
add any repository including PPAs and VirtualBox to
"/etc/apt/sources.d/" along with its corresponding gpg key but limited
itself to "ppa-purge" rather than increasing the complexity of its
removal script with "apt-purge-repository" (which is what the OP wants
to do).


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Old 03-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Camaleón
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:20:06 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 02:46:59PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is instructed
>> to remove non official versions of the packages in favor of the ones
>> available in Debian repositories.
>
> Right! As its name says. Consider the command "rm" in the same vein.

Sure. I neither let "rm" to do things blindly :-)

>> Fine, but reverting ffmpeg from D-M to the official version it can be
>> undesiderable or even break based on the current pining and priorities
>> (it can leave your system with mixed libraries from differenet
>> sources).
>
> More precisely, *having D-M* in your sources list can be undesirable¹;

Yes, I know, but sometimes is the most suitable option rather than having
to compile the packages by yourself. You have to value the pros and cons
of having packages installed from elsewhere not just D-M...

> it can leave your system with mixed libraries from different sources.

Yes. That's why I prefer to have external repos always turned off and
make them accessible only when I need a specific package from them.

> An interesting read starts here:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/03/threads.html#00151

(...)

All that is know and it can happen not just with D-M but when using non-
official repositories as sources.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 03-13-2012, 11:53 AM
Camaleón
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:16:52 -0400, Tom H wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:

(...)

>>> In my limited experience of "purge-ppa", it's worked very well.
>>
>> My guess is that is highly dependant on user's configuration: the
>> lesser repositories available + basic pinning rules = the higher
>> chances for getting successful results.
>
> That applies to non-Debian repositories but not to PPAs that's probably
> why Ubunical created "apt-add-repository" with which you can add any
> repository including PPAs and VirtualBox to "/etc/apt/sources.d/" along
> with its corresponding gpg key but limited itself to "ppa-purge" rather
> than increasing the complexity of its removal script with
> "apt-purge-repository" (which is what the OP wants to do).

I don't know how Ubuntu works in this regard (I mean, what are the inners
of their PPA infrastructure) but speaking for Debian and I don't like the
idea of letting a script to remove/downgrade packages/libraries and make
"its best guesses" on how to proceed.

Although on systems running the stable branch can be less traumatic
because dependencies there are more contained, I'm still very hesitant of
using such a tool unless it's to be run on a system for testing purposes.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 03-13-2012, 02:52 PM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:45:35PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:20:06 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 02:46:59PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> >> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is instructed
> >> to remove non official versions of the packages in favor of the ones
> >> available in Debian repositories.
> >
> > Right! As its name says. Consider the command "rm" in the same vein.
>
> Sure. I neither let "rm" to do things blindly :-)

The *default action* for rm is "to do things blindly", *unless* you set
the alias to "rm -i".

Are you suggesting ppa-purge should ask: "Are you sure you want to ...?"
by default?

Consider:
http://use.perl.org/~schwern/journal/38188

--
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte


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Old 03-13-2012, 03:23 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Automatically purging non-official packages

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:52:47 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:45:35PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:20:06 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 02:46:59PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> >> For instance, by default ppa-purge (or a similar script) is
>> >> instructed to remove non official versions of the packages in favor
>> >> of the ones available in Debian repositories.
>> >
>> > Right! As its name says. Consider the command "rm" in the same
>> > vein.
>>
>> Sure. I neither let "rm" to do things blindly :-)
>
> The *default action* for rm is "to do things blindly", *unless* you set
> the alias to "rm -i".

That's why you should be very careful when issuing that command when
you're root... and the same goes for anything that requires root
priviledges, such as removing packages.

> Are you suggesting ppa-purge should ask: "Are you sure you want to ...?"
> by default?

Nope, I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just exposing the reasons why I
don't like to automate packaging related tasks and why I'm not going to
use a tool like that. I take my system's health very seriously.

> Consider:
> http://use.perl.org/~schwern/journal/38188

Yep, I prefer to "mv" things or use Midnight Commander for day to day
tasks to avoid "fat finger" errors.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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